New guitar set up

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

New guitar set up

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

cr8ve1s

Posts: 4
Joined: Jul. 27 2015

New guitar set up

Hi, I have ordered a new travel guitar so I can practice when I am not home.

I was wondering what would be the correct action measurement on a guitar for a beginner flamenco player?

Thank you lovely people!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2015 18:58:41

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to cr8ve1s)

The Standard measurement is 3mm bottom E and 2.5mm top e. Most people tend to go as low as they can get away with though!

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2015 19:35:02

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to cr8ve1s)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2015 20:47:52

estebanana

Posts: 9370
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I don't know who told you that 2.5-3 mm is standard. There are plenty of very playable flamenco guitars with higher action too, 3.5 and even 4mm is not that uncommon. The goal is to have an instrument that is playable and sounds good. If there is good playability, whether the exact action is 2.5 or 3mm simply does not matter. Playability and low action are not always the same thing, as any professional player will tell you.

As long as the saddle is not to high. About 7 to 8mm for saddle is standard. But I've seen as low as 6mm and as high as 11 of playable flamenco guitars

Flamenco guitars are really more about saddle height than 12th fret. But I would back that 3mm is standard.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2015 23:47:09

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to cr8ve1s)

I agree that 3 mm is generally considered the standard but in the real world I found very common a set up at 3.2 mm or something similar at the 12th fret and around 7 or 8 mm at the bridge.
Just checked the average action on the website of a famous dealer of flamenco guitars in Spain and found almost always more than 3 mm at the 12th fret.
For instance I recently bought a very good sounding guitar set at 3.4 at the 12th and 6.7 at the bridge.
At the beginning I was scared by these setting but then realised that being the neck straight, it means the relief of the neck was set a couple of mm forward than usual.
It means also that the strings are set at 8 mm or more at the rosette and as consequence the guitar is perfectly playable, considering the whole geometry.
It would be uncomfortable instead if there was no neck relief and you had less than 7 mm high strings over the rosette. My Gerundino is set at 8 mm at the bridge and 9mm at the rosette and is as comfortable as the other one.
Again, I would distinguish among the stiff top kind flamenco guitars (like the Conde or Sanchis) and those lightly made as a stiff top let you go down a little more with the action while a flexible one will make the strings buzz if you don't have a clean technique.
In other words 3 mm at the 12 and 8 at the bridge is a well known point of reference but rarely found and a higher action not necessarily means the guitar has problems

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2015 5:04:57

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to cr8ve1s)

Encanto I am sure there are many prefered set ups for everyone. I was taught by two people to use 3mm and 2.5mm. I have also read the same on this and other forums. It is a good reference to start off and have had very few complaints. I have also been asked to lower and raise the action too!

The same can be set for classical. While 4mm down to 3mm is said to be the standard action there are people who prefer higher and others that prefer lower.

I should have put more effort in to my first post.

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2015 15:54:08

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to cr8ve1s)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2015 17:34:43

estebanana

Posts: 9370
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to cr8ve1s)

quote:

In other words 3 mm at the 12 and 8 at the bridge is a well known point of reference but rarely found and a higher action not necessarily means the guitar has problems

I can't agree with this, here's why:

The problem with a high 12th fret action and a low saddle is that there is no place to go.

A healthy guitar will set up at 3mm at the 12th and between 7 to 8 or 9 mm at the saddle and have room for more adjustment later.

Just because a guitar plays with a high 12th and a low saddle does not mean it's optimal. It just means you're getting away with it.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2015 1:10:41

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

In other words 3 mm at the 12 and 8 at the bridge is a well known point of reference but rarely found and a higher action not necessarily means the guitar has problems

I can't agree with this, here's why:

The problem with a high 12th fret action and a low saddle is that there is no place to go.

A healthy guitar will set up at 3mm at the 12th and between 7 to 8 or 9 mm at the saddle and have room for more adjustment later.

Just because a guitar plays with a high 12th and a low saddle does not mean it's optimal. It just means you're getting away with it.

I find it orders of magnitude closer to "ideal" than the opposite scenario....that being low action with super high bridge. As a flamenco player, I don't mind a guitar set up in the goldilocks zone because I don't intend to "go anywhere" with it in the future. Of course, I understand guitars are (wrongly) bought sold or ignored because of set up alone.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2015 16:25:42

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to estebanana)

Of course is preferable to have room for future adjustments just by shaving the bone.
If I was a buyer I'd check the action together with other aspects (how it sounds, how easy to play it is etc).

My point is that you should assess the guitar and understand why the action is the way it is, case by case, without presuming the neck is about to bend forward soon.
If the neck is healthy and you feel comfortable with the actual action (or you have room enough) that's it; I don't see reason to get worried.

I set up many Condes in the past: some of them (and some of the best were this way) had settings at the border of the standards above (both at the bridge and at the 12th fret) often because of a high neck relief. As I said before, they were perfectly playable as the neck angle allowed a comfortable position of the right hand at the rosette.
I still remember instead an old Conde with no neck relief at all and the bone way too high at the bridge, in order to let you have 2.5 at the 12th fret: in theory the latter was perfect and the first one wrong (and plenty of room) but in the real life it was the opposite.

As I said above, 3 mm is ok but to me is a low setting: For some guitars 3.2 or a little more is way better.
I took a look at the pictures in the website of a famous dealer selling Condes, Reyes, Barbas and so on: not even one of them was set up at 3 mm at the 12th fret and just few were set at over 8 mm at the bridge.

These are just my 2 cents and oviously respect different opinions.

It's just that many people reading these "standards" in Internet either ask for setting good just in theory (but not fitting their guitar) or get scared for 0.2 mm less or more...if it was for them both the settings of the guitar of Vicente Amigo and Paco the Lucia would be wrong.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2015 18:30:39

estebanana

Posts: 9370
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I find it orders of magnitude closer to "ideal" than the opposite scenario....that being low action with super high bridge. As a flamenco player, I don't mind a guitar set up in the goldilocks zone because I don't intend to "go anywhere" with it in the future. Of course, I understand guitars are (wrongly) bought sold or ignored because of set up alone.

I don't understand the meaning, of Goldilocks zone. What do you mean in terms of numbers?

__________________

My point is that as a builder you work for an ideal neck angle not just some arbitrary number. You want to provide a guitar that ideally has the capacity to be adjusted later. Sometimes you don't hit it perfectly, but you must try for it.

What ever you want to play on or can tolerate is your own personal decision.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2015 1:07:57

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

I find it orders of magnitude closer to "ideal" than the opposite scenario....that being low action with super high bridge. As a flamenco player, I don't mind a guitar set up in the goldilocks zone because I don't intend to "go anywhere" with it in the future. Of course, I understand guitars are (wrongly) bought sold or ignored because of set up alone.

I don't understand the meaning, of Goldilocks zone. What do you mean in terms of numbers?

7mm at bridge, 2.999999999mm at 12th fret

(assuming nut is allowing normal height of 0.95mm string to ebony board)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2015 16:07:58

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

(assuming nut is allowing normal height of 0.95mm string to ebony board)

Not a very good idea to take measurements relative to the ebony. The frets are the point of contact, not the wood.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2015 17:21:59

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

(assuming nut is allowing normal height of 0.95mm string to ebony board)

Not a very good idea to take measurements relative to the ebony. The frets are the point of contact, not the wood.

Right... But it brings up the point whether or not people are taking their 12th fret measures from OPEN string or held down at first fret...cuz the numbers are different.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2015 20:38:07

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

(assuming nut is allowing normal height of 0.95mm string to ebony board)

Not a very good idea to take measurements relative to the ebony. The frets are the point of contact, not the wood.

Right... But it brings up the point whether or not people are taking their 12th fret measures from OPEN string or held down at first fret...cuz the numbers are different.

I think its been said before that the whole ideal is how the top responds in its articulation and tension, as to whether the guitar is easy or hard to play with a suggested common clearance at 12th and saddle height.

Let's fact it, there is no perfect rule for all guitars but a basic reasoning that allows us to feel the differences according to how the top is built. And this does not mean that all thick or thin tops are the key to be tight or loose. It really depends on how the top is graduated and designed with the fan braces.

In other words, you can have a tight top with very thin graduation and this can effect certain pulsation and allow for more volume. But then you can have a thick top perform very clearly as well, according to how the top is tuned. So my interpretation is that the guitar can be easy to play with variable string heights. It all depends on top design; keeping with-in the suggested common rule.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2015 9:08:06

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Right... But it brings up the point whether or not people are taking their 12th fret measures from OPEN string or held down at first fret...cuz the numbers are different.

Sure, that makes a difference on measurement but I think it would do more harm than good if people started to assume "nut is allowing normal height of 0.95mm string to ebony board".

I set up all my instruments' nuts (fretted or not) to the first point of contact, that's where I measure clearence. On some guitars with perfectly flat radius (fretboard and frets) I prefer to have the bass strings almost at the same height, which means A has more clearence than E and D has more than A. Very confortable setup.

Anyway, whatever works.. works.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2015 11:12:01

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Ricardo)

The way to set up any guitar begins at the nut. This is adjusted with files and/or shims until all strings are correct at the first fret.

On an electric, you put a cejilla on the first fret, a finger on the 14th fret and measure the relief at the 7th fret. Should be about 2.5mm. If not, adjust the truss rod. (con cuidado).

On an acoustic, this may be less relevant, so you should look for 3mm at the 12th fret, (more or less) having removed the cejilla, and a reasonable angle at the saddle. 30% allows for future adjustment.

The distance between the strings and the tapa is determined by the luthier.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2015 14:40:01

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to cr8ve1s)

2.5mm is an awful lot of relief! I have seen straighter Bananas. Did you mean 0.25mm

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2015 20:22:38

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

2.5mm is an awful lot of relief! I have seen straighter Bananas. Did you mean 0.25mm

Sorry

You are right, of course.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2015 12:06:47

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to cr8ve1s)

I'd like to know, how many here are working the fretboard leaving a little relief at the area between the 5th - 8th fret.
In my experience I noticed just few guitar makers doing it as usually the fretboard is straight flat (but planed down a little on the bass side by the top).
Some guitar makers of Granada work the board as it did a little swirl, to keep the bone at the bridge at constant height and therefore constant the string angle at the bridge.
I'd like to try it but it doesn't seem easy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2015 10:30:32

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Echi)

quote:

I'd like to know, how many here are working the fretboard leaving a little relief at the area between the 5th - 8th fret.

It all depends on the top's design and how it pumps air; the stiffness and such. I have this relief in the Miguel Rodriguez design but not in the Conde design that I build. I will sometimes put it in the Reyes modification,

depending on the top thickness with how it is graduated to cause certain articulation for the right and left hand, due to the player' needs.

But if a builder is using this technique for a particular model that he builds, then rest assured the guitar needs the relief. But this slight relief is generally worked on the bass side of the board

not the entire board.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2015 12:45:12

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to cr8ve1s)

Thanks for the reply,
I meant to ask something slightly different:
I know there are different way the tops "pulse", according to their relative stiffness and bracing etc.
I have also some understanding on how the neck angle works and the need of fixing the neck with the right tilt during the assembly.
A combination of these things allows a good geometry and a lower action.

My point is that I noticed 2 different way when making the fretboards (no matter how low can be the action): the most common is to plane the fretboard straight, maybe just shaving a little on the bass side while approaching the sound hole.
A second way instead is to plane the fretboard in order to make a little swirl on it, with a gentle hollow in the middle. The latter allows to keep the bone at the bridge at constant height, as the fretboard is shaped to give more room to the basses.
My question is: what's your approach? Do you make the little dip at the 4th-7th fret?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2015 15:10:07

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: New guitar set up (in reply to Echi)

quote:

My question is: what's your approach? Do you make the little dip at the 4th-7th fret?

I use a scraper and center the deepest angle at the 7th fret, bass side, starting at about the third and ending at the 10th. this angle tapers away from the treble side which is left fairly level.

This is the way I do it, and I'm sure there are other techniques that work just as efficiently.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2015 15:44:18