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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

Checking "intonation"? 
Can someone please explain to me exactly what is 'string intonation'; and how to check it?

And also, how critical is it in actual everyday playing?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 14:48:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

Can someone please explain to me exactly what is 'string intonation'; and how to check it?

And also, how critical is it in actual everyday playing?

Some times strings go bad or have defects so that the relative tuning is not good throughout. MOst often, treble strings will go sharper the higher up the neck you go, but I have seen the opposite happen. fastest way to check is to play an open harmonic at 12th fret then press the same note down and play it and see if it is EXACTLY the same pitch or not.

Guitars with higher action or higher frets require care when playing in higher positions as finger pressure can bend the strings sharp or flat depending on the amount of pressure applied and direction of push or pull. Vibrato is a left hand technique that deliberately changes the intonation to create an oscillating pitch on a single note. In flamenco high frets or high action can be a problem as we often have high position fingerings heard against open strings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 14:54:49
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
It's very important factor. Every note can't be in perfect tune but with proper intonation it's closer. With different strings the intonation will be different. I had bad intonation with savarez alliance G string and la bella trebles, while luthier and savarez new cristal trebles gave good intonation. With basses it's more stable if the tension is the same(I use mediums)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 17:22:48
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

And also, how critical is it in actual everyday playing?


Significantly.

A same instrument, inaccurately tuned and intonating, compared to optimized condition makes a difference of day and night.

Even to not too well trained ears the difference becomes practically evident, as the second example will clearly outperform the former one in terms of rich, harmonic and inspiring attributes. The guitar due to greater harmony will even apear of greater volume.

Restringing a guitar with even / new strings, eventually adjusting its intonation at nut / saddle if needed and tuning it up tempered can easily make for the difference of going out and spending on a better instrument.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 15:42:41
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

fastest way to check is to play an open harmonic at 12th fret then press the same note down and play it and see if it is EXACTLY the same pitch or not.


You're right!

Using a tuner I find the 3rd string (Savarez Alliance) is noticeably sharper at the 12th fret. The 1st and 2nd, seem to be dead on. I'll try it with other strings also. Interesting to see what results. . .

Thanks. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2012 14:49:12
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
Any tips on a good tuner for acoustic guitar to check the intonation? I use basic 15 euro tuner now and it's not picking up the high pithces so well

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 28 2012 16:11:07
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to tele) 
quote:

Any tips on a good tuner for acoustic guitar to check the intonation? I use basic 15 euro tuner now and it's not picking up the high pithces so well


Yes - I finally found a terrific tuner. Planet Waves. Most tuners, including the popular Korgs, oscillate wildly back and forth between reds, and are very hard to get a steady green. Planet Waves gives a solid steady green, and also a huge black display letter. Also has a meter. Cheap too - eleven bucks.

http://www.amazon.com/Planet-Waves-Universal-Chromatic-Tuner/dp/B001IPUIT4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1354129977&sr=8-5&keywords=planet+waves+tuner

Ramon

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 28 2012 18:22:59
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to Ramon Amira) 
quote:

Yes - I finally found a terrific tuner. Planet Waves. Most tuners, including the popular Korgs, oscillate wildly back and forth between reds, and are very hard to get a steady green. Planet Waves gives a solid steady green, and also a huge black display letter. Also has a meter. Cheap too - eleven bucks.


Yes. I agree. I have several of them. I leave them clipped on the headstock of some of my guitars all the time. And they work really well, and very consistent. I paid about 19 bucks (Canadian) each for mine. But definitely worth it.

Where did you but them for eleven bucks?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2012 0:34:39
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

Where did you but them for eleven bucks?


I posted a link right above your post. It's not a clip-on.

Ramon

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2012 3:58:16
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to Ramon Amira) 
quote:

It's not a clip-on.


Sorry. I've never seen the one you have.

I really like the clip-on model. Compact, very light (16 grams) and accurate even with a noisy background. Strings by Mail sells them for about sixteen bucks I believe.

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2012 13:30:49
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

exactly what is 'string intonation'


in addition to the problems of dud or different strings, there is also the issue of compensation.

I'm no expert, so I hope the luthiers will forgive (and correct) any inaccuracies, but this is roughly how it was explained to me:

The 12th fret is half way between the bridge and the nut, which is why the note at the 12th fret is an octave higher than the open string.

Except it's not! The 12th fret would be half way between the bridge and the nut if the strings where at the same level as the wood of the neck, in which case they would buzz and you wouldn't get clear notes.

As you have to have the strings up off the wood of the neck to get actual notes, you then have to move the bridge back a little bit to compensate for the height of the action.

On classical guitars with higher action, the bridge is moved further back than on flamenco guitars with lower action (a generalisation of course).

I once had a flamenco guitar with low-ish action that did not intonate properly. It was eventually diagnosed that the bridge was too far back, as if it were a classical guitar with higher action. The solution was to cut out some wood from the bridge in front of the bridge bone, move the bone forward, and fill in behind it. Problem solved!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2012 16:42:39
 
estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
Mark Indigo,
Very good explaination.

There is one other thing that even a lot of luthiers don't get....string stiffness where it is trapped against the saddle. A small section of string right in front of the saddle will be less pliable than the rest of the string due to it being held under tension across the saddle.

When you have a large diameter nylon string like the G string it can stiffen up at that point and the actual vibrating length of the string can be a bit shorter causing the G string to tune up sharp in relation to the B and E. Often on a flamenco guitar moving the peak of the G string section of the saddle back towards the tie block can give the string that extra bit of flex it needs to tune more equally to the E and B.

I just glanced at this, but if Fruit Farmer says his E and B are in tune, but the G is sharp having the G moved back further on the saddle to give it more compensation will probably make it play better.

This often why when guitarists play 'por arribba' they pull the G string to flatten it. When you play por medio the sharper G tends to blend in better in that key. That is really sloppy way of explaining it. On steel string guitars this problem arrises too. Only on steel string guitars the solid core size of the string under the outer windings determines how the string stiffens as it goes over the saddle. A different pattern of out of compensation typically happens on steel strings.

Compensation is as much a science as it is a craft. For flamenco guitars with 650 to 660 scales you usually compensate between 1.5 and 2mm - and then give the G string a little more length is it needs it due to that string diameter issue. I say generally, because it is always inevitable that some math nerds will come along and say a bunch of nerdy stuff about the science of it. That is all fine, but for a player standpoint those things I outlined are the salient parts.

In the guitar works I find myself more and more becoming like those born again Christians who think dinosaurs and men lived in the same geologic epoch. Science is great, but playing flamenco is more like killing a dinosaur with a spear than working for NASA.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2012 21:29:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

This often why when guitarists play 'por arribba' they pull the G string to flatten it. When you play por medio the sharper G tends to blend in better in that key.


I disagree here only because this issue is simply due to the equal temp tuning system. Objectively, the players that do this will do it for the much skinnier B string when playing por medio for the same reason...equal temp tuning has nice 5ths but ugly thirds.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2012 13:36:06
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I ended up purchasing a korg aw2g tuner which is claimed to be one of the best and it was cheap on ebay

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2012 13:13:14
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

having the G moved back further on the saddle to give it more compensation will probably make it play better.


Then why not use one of those 'compensated' bridge saddles with the G string set-back?

I have an older 12 string guitar that has a compensated saddle, where the two G strings are set-back about 1/16 inch or so. Would this not be appropriate for a nylon guitar also?

Or does it depend purely on the key one in playing in?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2012 22:54:05
Guest

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

G string set-back

sorted out the slight intonation problem on my 1A [la bella 820B]
found this tuner to be very accurate even if it does require a phone...
alot of percentage markers between pitches..
http://www.bitcount.com/
a variety of saddles here with compensated 3rd...as well as 2nd and 4th strings
http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/philippe-bosset-carved-bone-classical-bridge-saddle-pbacc06-7349.html
used a variety of clip on tuners over the years...really happy with this one...the calibration is easy as i use 432hz for tuning alot of the time
http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/intellitouch-pt10-mini-guitar-tuner-5312.html

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2012 23:15:29
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

i use 432hz for tuning alot of the time


Why do you use 432hz tuning?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2012 17:24:59
Guest

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
432?
Not that uncommon
It was the tuning pitch till 1953.....though the push came for 440hz in 1939
Some flute, double bass, violinist and viola players who I played with in thecollege years tuned like that
For my guitar it adds a warmer brilliance ... Albeit tiny but noticeabl ... A different fullness..
Different feel to the string
Though I still use 440 at the request of others
Jason McGuire also suggested its a good frequency...a myriad of reasons involving tone and feel combined with goebels and the nazis and the rothschilds...
Then there's the whole Pythagorean thing

Worth a try...particularly if you play solo a lot....let us know what you think.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2012 10:59:31
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL:estebanana
those born again Christians who think dinosaurs and men lived in the same geologic epoch.


I suppose they learned that from the Godzilla movies. ( Which feature some giant Gorilla, a couple of sauriers and a bunch of oddly dressed chaps running around between the monsters paws.) While at it ... "GODzilla" ... I think to see now what could possibly be modern theological schooling films.
-

For precision tuning with tuners: Strobe tuners have come down in price quite some ( as long as it is not about Peterson at least ). I think to remember pointers at AG forum to a strobe released for around 80 bucks or so.
For ten times more accuracy that could probably be worth it.

At least for me it is either by ears or strobe when I want optimal result. Cent tuners don´t fully satisfy me.
You can take things to yet another level if your strobe is programmable, by recording your tempered tuning ( which again you can tweak by the strobe if it outperforms your ears ) and having the perfect setting instantly under your fingertips anytime.

And for quick and dirty, Petersons "sweetener" presets turn out surprisingly well.
-

I used to tune my guitars below 440, enjoying the somewhat slack feeling and the response of the lower mids. However, each time of return to standard 440 Hz things appealed better again. But I suppose to be talking of some pitch below 432 Hz.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2012 14:30:33
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

Worth a try...particularly if you play solo a lot....let us know what you think.


Interesting. Never heard of this before.

(Don't quite understand the Goebels/Nazi/Rothschild and Pythagorean connections, but. . . ? ? ? ? ).

If I can figure out how to calibrate my tuner to 432, I certainly give it a go.

Nothing venture, nothing gain, eh?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2012 20:43:09
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

If I can figure out how to calibrate my tuner to 432, I certainly give it a go.


O.K. recalibrating was easier than I thought.

So, at 432hz my BRZnegra has a slightly more mellow tone and somewhat easier playability (Hannabach Goldin strings).

My Tarantas arpeggios sound almost pleasant. . . (Ha!).

I think maybe I'll just leave this guitar at that tuning for now, and see what develops in a week or so.

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2012 21:37:33
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

And also, how critical is it in actual everyday playing?



huh so many answers to such a simple question... Im playing guitar for about 26yeas and never cared a second about it. Just forget about that nerd stuff. ;) Its completely unimportant.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2012 21:55:04
Guest

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

(Don't quite understand the Goebels/Nazi/Rothschild and Pythagorean connections, but. . . ? ? ? ? ).

well the nazi party [Goebels] were the one of the first to push that standard tuning be shifted from 432hz to 440hz
here is one of many links online
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message521987/pg1
pythagoras....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning

but yes the change is notable
i dont really take this stuff on board other than i like tuning to 432 at times, particularly for solo pieces......
some flamenco and jazz recordings as well as classical seem to tune at 432hz
someorchestra's seem to be pushing the 440 to 445 [vienna]...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2012 22:09:30
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

well the nazi party [Goebels] were the one of the first to push that standard tuning be shifted from 432hz to 440hz


Well; maybe A440 was a more appropriate pitch for those f %^^&ing screaming bombs they rained down on our heads when I was a five -year-old kid shivering in an air raid shelter in the freezing British winter of 1940.

Some things you never forget. . .

Anyway, 432hz seems to add a little something to one of my guitars. And also my playing. Strange to say. . .

I need all ther help I can get these days. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2012 0:28:58
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to britguy) 
Is it normal to have the 12th fret harmonic and 12th fret note the same but the 9th fret note noticeably flat? I have this on my guitar and the action is just under 3mm so its not too high. thanks

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2013 18:45:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to tele) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Is it normal to have the 12th fret harmonic and 12th fret note the same but the 9th fret note noticeably flat? I have this on my guitar and the action is just under 3mm so its not too high. thanks

no

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2013 20:00:50
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to tele) 
quote:

Is it normal to have the 12th fret harmonic and 12th fret note the same but the 9th fret note noticeably flat? I have this on my guitar and the action is just under 3mm so its not too high. thanks


Guitars are always a compromise when it comes to tuning, not only by their design but also because of string thickness/brand/material/height, style of playing, weather.. dont worry about it and be glad that a guitar isnt an electronic keyboard.

Bend a little bit when you reach those upper frets.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2013 22:07:38
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
How can I check that the fret spacing is correct at 8-10th frets?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2013 23:52:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to tele) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

How can I check that the fret spacing is correct at 8-10th frets?


Because if it wasn't you couldn't play a single darn thing like a chord or anything above the 7th without it sounding all crazy. Its math. More likely if something is off is due to the strings themselves.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2013 2:00:31
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Checking "intonation"? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:


432?
Not that uncommon
It was the tuning pitch till 1953.....though the push came for 440hz in 1939
Some flute, double bass, violinist and viola players who I played with in thecollege years tuned like that
For my guitar it adds a warmer brilliance ... Albeit tiny but noticeabl ... A different fullness..
Different feel to the string


What an odd coincidence, this post is. I had just played for a few minutes and loved the way my guitar felt and sounded... then, I realized i was tuned slightly flat [relative to 440hz, that is].

Ironically, i was just thinking what would Ricardo say if I posted something tuned in such fashion [old fashion, may be]. He would probably remark 'you are flat'... but if he blessed this twist, I would be so pleased and relieved.

Ricardo?

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2013 2:58:47
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