Question for the builders

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koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

Question for the builders

Hey guys,

I´m working on my 4th guitar right now and I´d like to use the Barbero plan for the next one(the one with the asymetrical bar). I´ve been looking at several drawings and I am a bit confused. The lower harmonic bar inclines slightly toward the treble side doesn´t it? I know there are plans for sale, but I´m a bit short on cash so I´m doing my own full scale drawings with all the information I can find on the net.
Any help would be great!

Thanks!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2013 12:51:35

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

Roy Courtnall is selling such a plan and has it displayed online here http://www.guitarplans.co.uk/Barbero%20Flamenco%20Guitar%20Plan.htm

It says the soundboard is viewed from underneath, unlike a lot of other plans that show through the top. It does appear that the lower harmonic bar is tilted slightly down towards the treble side.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2013 14:39:29

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

Incidentally, I received a Courtnall plan for a Santos Hernandez guitar along with a "kit" of materials from LMII.com and the lines were so thick that it was practically meaningless. This one looks possibly more precise.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2013 14:46:22

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

Thats the plan I´ve been spying on together with a small picture on the Madinter site

.
So I guess that the slanted bar gives it stronger trebles?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2013 16:02:12

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

So I guess that the slanted bar gives it stronger trebles?

I think that was probably the idea, but I also think it is ridiculous.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2013 1:00:07

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

quote:

So I guess that the slanted bar gives it stronger trebles?

I think that was probably the idea, but I also think it is ridiculous.

I´ve built some 30 - 40 flamenco guitars with a slanted lower harmonic bar.
My experience is that the bass get a bit stronger. I have discussed it with other builders who have made a good deal of guitars with asymerical lower harmonic bars and they agreed with me.
Ideas are products of brain work, but sometimes they have nothing to do with reality. The idea behind the slanted lower harmonic bar is to stiffen the treble side because the treble side gets less "space", but if you do so only by slanting the lower harmonic bar, you could as well have the idea of getting a looser bass because the bass side gets more "space"

IMHO, the layout of the braces and bars is important, but its A LOT more important what you do with the braces and the bars.
So I ask myself if you by making a cheapo internet plan, you get the information about the important stuff?

I dont use asymetrical layouts on my flamenco guitars anymore.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2013 8:29:06

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

I am very much aware of the fact that copying a plan doesn´t mean it will be a great guitar, I´m still learning and i try to understand how bracing more or less works and how it can afecstthe sound of a guitar. For now I´ve tried several bracing systems(Santos Hernandez, Reyes, Domingo Esteso) but I really want to try Barbero. If i am correct the height of the braces should be more or less 3.7 mm and the height between 6.5 mm depending of the stiffness/weight of the top.
This will be the first guitar I will do completely by myself in my house. The other guitars I´ve build in the Chácon school in Málaga.
I´m trying to get as much informacion as I can but i´m sure you all know that there is a lot of bulls#€t and secretness about guitarmaking on the net, and many builders seem to have a different opinion about things.
I also understand that trying all these different plans might not be the the best way to learn how it all works, but this will be the last one and from there I´ll probably pick one and try to work from there by making very small changes until I get the sound I´m looking for.
I very much apreciate your comments and/or critisism on this so I can learn from it. This foro was what got me in to building so I just like to share my personal experience with you guys.
This is what the plan looks like so far but I´m quite sure I will be changing some things later(advice on this is very welcome) I will be using cípres for the back and sides and european spruce for the top, Cedar neck with Ebony fretboard.
Let me know what you think.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2013 10:54:36

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

Sorry about the size of the picture... I don´t know how to make it smaller

Any advice on that is also very welcome.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2013 11:00:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

The 5 braces, 6,5mm wide and 3,7mm high is a good starting point. Depending on how you shape them.
But maybe some of those who have based their building on this plan can give you a better answer.
You´re right in one thing: Getting the thickness of the soundboard right is the most important thing.
Good luck

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2013 12:11:19

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

Thank you Anders!

I was thinking about giving them like a triangular shape, Do the different shapes make a lot of difference?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2013 12:57:05

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

Do the different shapes make a lot of difference?

Of course. Its all about stiffness and pulsation.

The braces are there to reinforce more than anything else. And there´s a fysical law saying that the fibers that are the furthest away fom the soundboard top surface. is the fiber that give you the most stiffness.
Think about it. Its all very logical.
But in the end it has to be tried to be understood. (like everything in the world)

There´s a big difference between using braces which are 3mm wide and 6mm high (Romanillos) and using braces 6mm wide and 3mm high (Torres). The sound is different and especially the stiffnes and so the feel or pulsation is very different

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2013 19:43:36

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Do the different shapes make a lot of difference?

And there´s a fysical law saying that the fibers that are the furthest away fom the soundboard top surface is the fiber that give you the most stiffness.
Think about it. Its all very logical.

Something here is lost in the translation. I think you are saying that taller braces are stiffer (well duh!).

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2013 0:26:17

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Do the different shapes make a lot of difference?

And there´s a fysical law saying that the fibers that are the furthest away fom the soundboard top surface is the fiber that give you the most stiffness.
Think about it. Its all very logical.

Something here is lost in the translation. I think you are saying that taller braces are stiffer (well duh!).

John.
You´re right that taller braces are stiffer. But what I´m trying to say a little bit about is a very complex thing. You´re also right that there might be language issues.

I will try one more time. This time simpler.
If you make a 7 piece fan layout and you make 7 braces 6x3mm, (for now, forget about the shape of the braces. In order to explain what is happening, lets say that they are square)
The difference in stifness, tone and pulsation is VERY big if you glue them 3mm wide and 6mm high versus if you glue them 6mm wide and 3mm high.

Why is it so: Because of the physical law that says that the fibers the furthest away from the soundboard is giving much more stiffness to the soundboard than the fibers which are closest to the soundboard.
Its the same law that explains why a tube with 1mm wall thickness and a diameter of 20mm is a lot stiffer than a tube with a 1mm wall thickness and a diameter of 18mm.
This fact is one of the reasons why you see some classical builders using composite braces, with balsa closest to the soundboard and spruce or carbon fiber the on the outside.

Now if life was so that all that we wanted was the stiffest bracing as light as possible, then life would be really easy. But its not. There are so many parameters that you can work on, that it would be impossible to explain all of it on an internet forum. There´s only one way to understand: Build and use your senses and your brain.

IMHO, (and this I´ve said many times here), the layout of the braces and the exact size of the body is not the most important.
The thickness and width of the braces is important, but the way you shape the braces is where you´re getting to the point of controlling what you are doing.

I hope this is understandable.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2013 9:04:04

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: koenie17

I was thinking about giving them like a triangular shape, Do the different shapes make a lot of difference?

Assuming the same width triangular braces need to be somewhat taller than rectangular ones but it may be a good tradeoff since a triangular brace can achieve the same stiffness with less mass.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2013 13:59:45

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Question for the builders (in reply to koenie17)

No problems understanding any of your explanations guys! maybe some grammar mistakes from my side

The diagonal braces in the drawing I´ll decide to put them in when I´ve glued de first 5 braces on the top and see how stiff it is. I want to try an get a guitar mostly for dance acompañamiento. Loud, raspy and very percusive.
I´m thinking that less braces should be able to let the top move more freely, that is if I can get a nice and stiff piece of spruce. One of the mayor woodsellers in Spain sold me some real bad ones, and when I made a comment about it they made a big fuss about it because I allready sanded them! How am I suppose to see the quality if they send it completely raw to me?
Thanks again for your time Anders, John and Ethan!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2013 14:58:58