waxing guitar

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waxing guitar

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rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

waxing guitar

now ive heard from luthiers never to put anything on a quality guitar for the life of me I cant figure out why a good quality wax like trewax wouldn't benefit the wood. I don't mean like goop it on every week but every once in awhile buff it out with the wax. I would think it would help preserve the wood etc. any thoughts?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 2:18:00

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

Here's a thought I've thought about for a long time: Cars are for fetshizing and guitars are for playing.

And wax on guitars gets all over the place a can cause problems because you don't know what kind of solvents they are made with. Waxes can weaken the finish, gum up the finger board, attract dust, get inside seams of bindings and purflings and make them work open and a billion other reasons.

Cars are for shining, guitars are for playin', just sayin.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 5:27:27

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

I'm with you, I don't understand why everyone feels the need to do something to their guitars. Best thing you can do for you guitar is wash your hands before you play it.

The finish that comes on guitars is pretty damn bullet proof, nothing should need to be done for a half century i would think..........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 5:39:24

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Best thing you can do for you guitar is wash your hands before you play it.

That is exactly what I tell people, that and wipe it off with a soft cloth when you finish playing. Guitar don't need more moisture or anything to feed the wood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 5:44:21

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

quote:

waxing guitar

my guitar doesn't grow hair, so I don't need to wax it!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 11:32:56

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

waxing guitar

my guitar doesn't grow hair, so I don't need to wax it!

But what you´re going to do when wanting to ski with it?
Guess those strings on it won´t make for ideal slide anyway, so wax could really help it somewhat with getting down the slope a bit faster.
You guys need to think a bit further.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 12:29:52

Guitarsid

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 5 2013
From: Maryland USA

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

quote:

now ive heard from luthiers never to put anything on a quality guitar for the life of me I cant figure out why a good quality wax like trewax wouldn't benefit the wood. I don't mean like goop it on every week but every once in awhile buff it out with the wax. I would think it would help preserve the wood etc. any thoughts?

I also think that it isn't required, but as long as it feels good to you, it won't hurt anything to do that. Here is another brand that is similar with carnauba wax, which is also in many guitar polishes,
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/clayton-carnauba-guitar-wax-polish
I would opt for a wax/polish that is specifically made for guitar finishes. A fellow guitar player in my old band used ordinary Pledge to polish his guitar. After a number of years, it did begin to remove some of the finish, which I am guessing was nitrocellulose, on a vintage Les Paul electric. This was no doubt due to some solvents in the polish that do evaporate off, I believe that he overdid it. I remember him "waxing on/waxing off" after every single gig.
Now the thick "plastic" coating/finishes they put on cheap guitars would be better off removed somewhat, but not any of the finish on a very well made, french polished guitar. Thus if I had that quality of flamenco guitar, I would opt for nothing but maybe a little bit of lemon oil on occasion.
I also always treat fingerboards with linseed oil, which is a drying oil. It restores the beauty and luster of the the wood nicely in old worn and dried out fingerboards. It soaks into the wood and fully polymerizes (dries).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 12:44:10

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

if the guitar has a poly finish i guess wax would not hurt it although buffing it with a soft cloth would do the same. if the finish is nitro or french polish i defer to those who know how wax and the finish would react.

the only advantage i can see to waxing a guitar is to give it an extra layer of protection from road salt.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 13:18:56

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

They should do a myth busters episode on this. If your guitar isn't french polished
it's already seen automotive products most likely in the form of buffing agents to
get the finish to look nice and more than likely been waxed. I have and wouldn't
hesitate in future to use a little bit of Meguiar's on pretty much anything with a
sprayed on finish.

It "doesn't" leave a heavy coat, it "doesn't" unglue your guitar, it "doesn't" melt
the finish. It just works well.

I'm not a luthier but I paint planes, and I have finished a lot different items with
various finishing systems I've yet to see something that "automotive" polishing
systems will wreck. EVEN if you need to refinish the stuff comes right off.

I'm not advising you to use them, but I have and they work well. That is at least
on guitars that have various sprayed on finishes. (i.e. factory guitars).

Disclaimer - If you put Nu-Finish on your $10k french polished luthier built
super guitar, you are an idiot.

Regards,
Jeff

quote:

now ive heard from luthiers never to put anything on a quality guitar for the life of me I cant figure out why a good quality wax like trewax wouldn't benefit the wood. I don't mean like goop it on every week but every once in awhile buff it out with the wax. I would think it would help preserve the wood etc. any thoughts?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 14:31:24

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to n85ae)

quote:

ORIGINAL: n85ae

That is at least on guitars that have various sprayed on finishes. (i.e. factory guitars).

Just to be clear Jeff. There are many luthiers who use lacquer rather than French Polish and a sprayed on shellac finish is not uncommon.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 18:07:40

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

That wasn't really my point. That is if seemed I was bad mouthing lacquer,
etc. Most sprayed on finishes will require buffing to level the finish. I know
that most of the good rubbing and polishing compounds are stolen from
the auto finishing industry so ...

Actually a guy I use to work with said you can paint anything with a broom in
a dust storm, and it will look just as good as if it comes from a sealed
spray booth - After it has been wet sanded, and buffed. This statement
while going against the grain for many is actually very true.

There is a Marine paint called Easypoxy which is applied with rollers and brushes,
and after buffing you can't tell the difference between it and a sprayed finish.
I know because I have used it quite a bit.

The critical point on a guitar would really be "how much" you put on it.

Back to the original issue, wax - If the finish is not harmed by it, then it seems to
me that it should not be a problem.

I'm not always a sane person though so ... Use your own judgement.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 21:00:49

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

Unfortunately a lot of wax polishes contain silicones and they are very hard to remove if you need to repair or refinish.
Even plain wax is a contaminant on the guitar I could do without, especially if it come into contact with bare wood.
I am very careful what polishing compounds I use when buffing out a guitar, nitro or French polish

I'm in the no wax camp

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 21:07:34

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

I'm in the no wax camp

I'm in the no-wax camp as well. I use a silicone free synthetic auto polish (no wax in it). A few drops once every six months to a year and the guitar is so slick it's hard to keep in on your leg. Refinishing or touch up has never been a problem with this stuff. I've been using it for years.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 22:04:10

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

I generally advise as Stephen does--just wipe with a soft cloth--and I usually supply a polishing cloth with each guitar--from the auto supply shop, of course. Sometimes if my guitar is especially dirty, I will spray on a little Endust and polish it off right away. It works great. It says it has no wax in it, but it seems to me that it is a mixture of something waxy and water, the water being the reason I polish it off right away.

I have repaired guitars that had a tremendous buildup of wax on the fingerboard and I can't imagine how that was achieved. I think a light coating of paste wax on the body wouldn't hurt--or help. Coconut oil works nicely on fingerboards.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2013 15:33:16

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

Ethan,

A freshly built guitars fretboard ( wood still untreated) was going to be oiled when I kindly asked the builder to please use wax instead.
The reason was that I fancied wax as less penetrating, thus leaving the wood less "soaked" / its resonating properties better preserved.
Do you think such assumption has been groundless?

Thank you,

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2013 16:00:55

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Ethan,

A freshly built guitars fretboard ( wood still untreated) was going to be oiled when I kindly asked the builder to please use wax instead.
The reason was that I fancied wax as less penetrating, thus leaving the wood less "soaked" / its resonating properties better preserved.
Do you think such assumption has been groundless?

Thank you,

Ruphus

So you think you can actually hear the difference between a fretboard treated with oil, as everyone does, vs. wax (referring to your comment about resonating properties)? If you oil a fretboard correctly there isn't a thing to worry about.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2013 16:31:53

Guitarsid

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 5 2013
From: Maryland USA

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to Ruphus)

I can understand Ruphus' reasoning, yes, dry/unsealed wood is quite absorbent and yes, fingerboard oil will penetrate down into the wood fibers nicely. If a drying oil such as linseed is used, that oil will polymerize and "dry" up and get hard. Whether or not, nor how much, this will affect the sound, I have no idea. But I believe there is a happy medium where a very dry fingerboard will benefit from some moderate applications of oil on a very occasional basis. With most anything, there may be the possibility of overdoing it and just oversaturating the board with oil, but as I said, I don't know what impact that will have on sound. I have seen an ebony fingerboard crack lengthwise and I can't say that it was because it dried out too much, but I also can't imagine that a bit of oil supplied once in a while to the inner fibres of that fingerboard would have hurt it, and may have even helped it out a little bit.
I think a light coating of lemon oil or carnauba wax on the finish of a guitar will help keep moisture/perspiration/bodily fluids, and oils/dirt/filth off the finish or at least make it easier to clean off with just a cloth. Sometimes if this filth is left on for too long, it can cause a bloom or some other uneven gloss or cloudiness to the finish that is entirely unremovable. And yes, in a way, it is the very same principle as waxing a car or using rainx on the windshield to repel moisture etc. and to help preserve the finish in terms of eveness, gloss, etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2013 19:24:31

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

my concern about oiling a fretboard is not so much about the oiling process rather the time of oiling. it seems to me, and i may be totally off base here, is that oiling before winter is probably not the best thing. during the winter many of us have to humidify our environment and since oil and water do not mix it seems oiled ebony would repel moisture. i have no research to verify this only the environmental and chemical variables mentioned above.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2013 20:39:42

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

You don't need to oil fret boards, your fingers deposit plenty of oil every time you play. Oils, even the drying oils attract dust and dirt. There is no damping effect of oil or wax on fingerboard that is humanly perceptible.

Just wipe the sweat off for it after you play, that will remove excess body oil and dead skin cells from the fingerboard and body. The most important thing is to put the guitar in the case dry. Putting the guitar away dry is much more important than waxes and oils, which do basically nothing but collect more dust. Putting the guitar away dry helps keep the humidity in the case at a good level, instead of trapping wetness, and it keeps molds and bacteria from growing inside the guitar.

One of the places mold usually grows on guitars is right under your left cheek if you sweat over the body or touch your cheek to the guitar. Over a long periods of without wiping the guitar down time sweat can get in the finish and express itself on the inside of the upper bout. The molds grow there and then you'll have to take it to have mold removal treatment....I've seen it several times.

Guys, don't wax and oil your guitars, it's not needed. Wipe the sweat off after you play.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 0:07:19

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

Mr. Miyagi says mostly wax off:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 0:29:23

Guitarsid

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 5 2013
From: Maryland USA

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to Guitarsid)

Natural resin varnishes all also age, dry, and crack eventually, so periodically treating the guitar with carnauba wax or lemon oil will also help to slow this processs and preserve these finishes longer. Newer synthetic resin varnishes are less prone to this deterioration because the newer synthetic complex polymers are far more durable than traditional natural resin varnishes/shellac. So while newer poly finishes may not benefit as much from feeding the surface, they will also keep the guitar looking like it has been dipped in plastic forever.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 2:16:33

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to Guitarsid)

quote:

Natural resin varnishes all also age, dry, and crack eventually, so periodically treating the guitar with carnauba wax or lemon oil will also help to slow this processs and preserve these finishes longer.

Treating resin and oil varnish with wax or oil won't change it if is going to crack. If the varnish is formulated correctly it won't crack, or will be self healing if it does. However we usually don't use resin based varnishes on guitars. Even if we did, once the resin and oil polymerize into a film the only thing that will disturb or change it is a harsh stripper or a solvent.

quote:

Newer synthetic resin varnishes are less prone to this deterioration because the newer synthetic complex polymers are far more durable than traditional natural resin varnishes/shellac. *****So while newer poly finishes may not benefit as much from feeding the surface, they will also keep the guitar looking like it has been dipped in plastic forever.*****

Modern alkyd resin varnishes are tougher, but probably not more long lived than natural resin oil varnishes. Modern resin varnishes have many components fillers driers, which older varnishes don't have. All the chemicals in modern finishes means there are more parts to break down over time. Polyurethane finishes and resin finishes are not the same thing;poly finishes have a plastic component that depends on a chemical lipid to keep the finish supple. Eventually, just like the plastic dash board on a car dries up a cracks, so will poly finish. it might take 50 years, but it will dry a crust off.

Even though a poly finish depends on the chemical lipid substance, that substance can't be replaced in the finish if it dries out. The plastic on a car dash board can be 'fed' to a certain extent to prolong its life, but a poly finish on a table top or a guitar does not accept the same feeding procedure. The reason people think this is true is because the chemical companies that make waxes and treatments want to sell you product so they create these feeding scenarios to get you to buy waxes. It began in the 1950's and people still think it's true.

Waxes do work for car finishes, which are vastly different from guitar finishes, and they wax does not feed the paint or coatings on a car, it puts protective film over them to shield the coatings from dirt, air and sun.
The whole notion of feeding guitar finishes and fingerboards or thinking they need to be fed with waxes is something that does not have to be done.

As I've said and other guitar makers, wipe your axe dry after you play. that is the best thing you can do for it on daily basis. The finish does not need feeding, it needs to be patted dry.

That is why I posted the experimental film Kustom Kar Kommandos by Kenneth Anger, circa 1966- it shows guys fetishizing cars, acting like Marlon Brando....The chemical companies have been selling wax since the 1950's because guys like to rub things silly.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 4:22:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to estebanana)

I much prefer shaving to waxing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 7:01:18

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

Be a man and wax it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 12:23:17

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

You don't need to oil fret boards, your fingers deposit plenty of oil every time you play.

Not trying to argue for arguments sake but ebony especially is prone to drying out=cracking and I've seen a ton of it that needs an oiling. You can immediately tell when it starts to get that whiter satiny look to it instead of the smooth deep black/browns. Heck most players still can't get it through their heads that they need to monitor humidity let alone rely on their fingers to oil their boards. I'm amazed when I walk into a guitar center or the like that every guitar there is basically dry as a bone. My fingers might hit the fretboard barely, if any. Seems like if you are rubbing all over the fretboard you aren't fretting the strings right or are pushing far too hard and the tips of your fingers are literally spilling over the side of the string. I oil my fretboards once a year and it keeps them in top shape. Basically just put a very light coat on, let it sit for about 30 seconds and immediately wipe off. The key is to also be sure to wipe all the way to the fret as the oil likes to accumulate right where the fret meets the board.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 14:43:59

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

True about neglected humidity matter in stores.
I have seen it in Germany ( even in stores stocking finer guitars ) and worse even here where RH resides around 30% and where shop owners conduct coolant AC in their tiny rooms that will point the blow directly at the instruments.

Whether there or here with fret wires sticking out and soundboards sunken it.

If shop owners won´t know consumers might be even less aware.
-

- While about uninformed store owners: Had one case here where all the guitars strings were wound slack. With me having to bring them up to pitch and the idiot of owner picking the axes right away to slack them again, whenever me would put them on stand to compare to other guitars.
Asked why he was doing such, he explained that the guitars would be needlessly strained when strung up to pitch.
As he wouldn´t cease the habit even after I asked him to let it be while I was checking out his range, I had to just get up and leave the place to his idiocy.

The moron must have learned the job of a butcher or so if anything, before switching trade for unrelated reason. >Rant over, grudge still on<

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 18:08:31

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

Strained by being at pitch? wow. Maybe with Hannabach extra high tension which rumor has it also second as the suspension cables at the golden gate bridge

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 19:58:51

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to rickm)

Golden Gate Bridge?
Man, these ought be durable sets!

Let´s hope that guy won´t find his next job as chief maintenance engineer there. Imagine his measures to preserve the structure and all the trucks creeping up rises with the bridge cables slack.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 21:14:07

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: waxing guitar (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

Not trying to argue for arguments sake but ebony especially is prone to drying out=cracking and I've seen a ton of it that needs an oiling. You can immediately tell when it starts to get that whiter satiny look to it instead of the smooth deep black/browns. Heck most players still can't get it through their heads that they need to monitor humidity let alone rely on their fingers to oil their boards. I'm amazed when I walk into a guitar center or the like that every guitar there is basically dry as a bone. My fingers might hit the fretboard barely, if any. Seems like if you are rubbing all over the fretboard you aren't fretting the strings right or are pushing far too hard and the tips of your fingers are literally spilling over the side of the string. I oil my fretboards once a year and it keeps them in top shape. Basically just put a very light coat on, let it sit for about 30 seconds and immediately wipe off. The key is to also be sure to wipe all the way to the fret as the oil likes to accumulate right where the fret meets the board.

Well you have a point, for guitars not being played a lot and with a fingerboard that was not really seasoned before assembly. It could shrink while it seasons on the guitar, I'm sure there's a guitar or two at guitar center that suffers that issue.

I'm not so down on a once a year or three year, finger board oiling with some linseed oil, but the constant talk of waxing and polishing bothers me. Guitars that are being played regularly get a lot of exposure to your body moisture, it's each persons call to use oil, but wax....generally instrument makers caution against it.

We just answer these wax questions over and over. Would be nice to have or make a FAQ section that says: Item # 17 Luthers don't recommend waxing guitars. Blah blah blah.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2013 21:55:51