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Hope it dosent...that's not the intention, its a genuine question and a genuine observation..i like both old and new
An older audio i just heard made me think of it...its in compas but the compas is hard, straight, not rounded up perfectly...it dosent loop and swing perfectly
I have noticed that all the newer recordings have a more perfect soniquete, the compas is more perfectly round...the swing is more perfect
Question is Is this a technological improvement ( eg use of metronomes and click tracks in studios..much more takes...multitracks etc)... or is it a question of improved ear and understanding of rithm and more attention and respect to compas, more detail..
perhaps even with dancing getting better and better and playing a bigger part in a more competitive market...accompanying guitarists rithm and compas had to get better and more spot on...?
whats your take ?
it cannot be denied that there is a difference between older records, cds up to the 60's and 70's ...or if i am wrong and anyone has an audio example feel free to share
heres a quick audio example...listen to how perfectly and nicely the compas and the guitar rithm swings and rounds off and the soniquete etc..now that kind of swing and soniquete is a trademark of the newer albums..infact the way the rithm is played in my opinion is one of the most clearest and less talked about difference between not so long ago and now
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
This should be good. There is more than one question so the answers will be complex.
I think the production techniques have changed and technology has made it possible to create recordings where each part is manipulated to perfection. This is both good a bad, because it creates a seamless product, but also sacrifices some of the raw character of knowing a performance has a tiny flaw.
Much of the swinging in modern flamenco comes from the fact that musicians listen widely today and have absorbed lots of music and it has has some impact on flamenco. However I have a friend who likes to say about fusions, Flamenco gives it does not take. Flamenco get watered down in his opinion and gives to other music. Not sure if I agree 100%.
The same person also calls modern flamenco a homogenization of styles which in the days of the older records would have still been more regional. His idea is that when flamencos from different areas began to gather and record in Madrid the notion of a regional style toque for example began t break apart, largely due to Paco de Lucia and his influence to bring in other music to flamenco.
The train lines were built between all points of Spain, musicians were asked by recoding companies to work with other artists in flamenco which traditionally would not have been thought of as "a good marriage of arte" between guitarists and singers for example. So flamenco artists began to work toward common goals of musical communication rather than regional differences for the sake of recoding.
Those are some ways of looking at it, but it's really a complex situation, it all just evolved. But to me I think the heart of the matter is the change in the greater recording industry world wide where even a specialty music needs to be carefully produced. And that flamencos in the past 30-35 years have increasingly crossed stylistic borders to work with each other. In the Spain before the 1970's this was more difficult due to the political climate in Spain and the way the economic hardships of the 1930's, 40's, and 50's effected the flamenco gypsy population, mainly keeping people closer to home and not as exposed to other regions flamenco.
I have another older friend who goes so far as to say flamenco flourished in regional styles under Franco because nobody could go anywhere except the bar down the street. So after that difficult way of life who would want to be stuffed into an artistic box?
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
You have a point , it reminds me of a jazz type problem I looked at a long time ago . to do with people who play mainly behind the beat or some in front a bit ( of the beat ) this either gives a "laid back feel" or can create some drive and forward movment. all kinds of people use this , its called feel, drummers in particular , the metronome can detract from this "feel' in any kind of music , of course in flamenco , in one tune you may be on , or with the beat but jump slightly in front for the exiting ending. for example. The problem in a studio was if the drummer listened to a click track on headphones he was not free to play well , the solution was to not have the click on every beat , therefore in a swing type music in 4/4 120 BPM you would put the metronome at 60 BPM and these beats would be beat 2 and beat 4 , beats 1 and 3 wouldn't be clicked , its a bit like clicking your fingers to a swing track you would feel comfortable clicking on 2 and 4 and find it unatural to click on 1 and 3 . Anyway if it were 3/4 , as many tunes are in flamenco only the strong beat would be marked , like a Sevillanas would only be clicked on beat 1. the others would be silent, therefore you would play at 120 by setting at 40 and calling each click 1, This is one way to use technology to keep thing right but not be killed by it , leaving a bit of freedom. Also if you see a large orchestra rehearsing you will see the conductor instructing the orchestra and certain players of sections that will be played slightly slower or faster to create the desired atmosphere, so why should flamenco be any different . Technology isn't really changing things it's just the people using it that allow this to happen. Its what you want it to be .
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
I agree with Todd that with the passing of time, just as everything has become more sophisticated in flamenco, so has the rhythm?
Not to mention the fact that swing is a pretty modern concept to me. I do not associate swing with older recordings at all. The flamenco is more jagged.
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RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Harry)
quote:
hose are some ways of looking at it, but it's really a complex situation, it all just evolved. But to me I think the heart of the matter is the change in the greater recording industry world wide where even a specialty music needs to be carefully produced.
good one...i agree with all of you and all of the above...and then again real life playing accepts that as the thing to aim for tries to copy carefully produced stuff ...so they keep influencing each other and having an effect on each other
its a very good point...cause its not just flamenco thats changed....every album of any style
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
I think a lot of modern flamenco is made so it is easier to play. There are some older styles and falsetas that you have to have incredible technique to play well, while many modern things sound good because the idea of harmony in flamenco has changed.
I think the harmonic expansion of chords in flamenco and they way they are linked together has and lot to do with the feeling of swing. Before Sabicas harmonic movement in flamenco was not as it is now, Sabicas began to hint at it but Paco opened it up. The way harmonic structures work in flamenco today enable the guitarist to create a different sense of space in the music than the older styles which were more spare harmonically. Ask Jason or Ricardo to expand on that.
Swing is also a relative term. You can swing like Lightnin' Hopkins,( Jerez in the 1950's? ) who can really swing, or you can swing like X,Y and Z modern flamenco group who listened to samba and bossa nova.
I don't feel like one really swings harder than the other, but the idea of how musicians work with _space in the music_ has changed. It's style, change of taste evolution etc.
But what do I know I carve little sticks all day.
And dancers have profoundly changed the game of how compas is understood and used. They have turned the game upside down and back in the last 20 yrs. If you want to educate yourself about compas have a conversation with a seasoned pro dancer who knows about how corte's have been used and abused the last 20 years.
Just where did that extra six start again???? That break started where in the compas?
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Swing is also a relative term. You can swing like Lightnin' Hopkins,( Jerez in the 1950's? ) who can really swing, or you can swing like X,Y and Z modern flamenco group who listened to samba and bossa nova
do you have an audio example of this guy ?
Whatever is making the newer stuff swing, whatever the reason is ...samba ...bossa nova...whatever...it feels more rounded off to my ears...more even etc, feels like an improvement ..is something i really like and look for alot in flamenco albums..
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
You mean Lightnin' Hopkins? Yeah there a few examples of his playing. LOL !!
Florian, go to a CD shop in the blues section and look around. Or you tube him. he was one of the blues men who people like Kieth Richards emulated. The older he got the deeper his groove became.
I bet Pata Negra took in some Lightnin' Hopkins..... LOL
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
this is a very nice topic and great analysis about this subject.
it's true what you said about production technics estabanana. I read once about Ramon Montoya recording his records in one take. He just sits down plays 10 songs after each other and done. While now with multi tracking for example, you could even split a song in parts and redo parts in the song of whatever instrument or vocals as many time you like until it's perfect. So you don't have to record the same whole piece because one or two parts were not perfect or a little bit messy.
that's why in my opinion flamenco sounds much better live than on a record. Camaron had some songs where one of the guitars even plays a very wrong chord. they would let some messy stuff stay in the record and that's kind of nice as well somehow
quote:
do you have an audio example of this guy ?
Whatever is making the newer stuff swing, whatever the reason is ...samba ...bossa nova...whatever...it feels more rounded off to my ears...more even etc, feels like an improvement ..is something i really like and look for alot in flamenco albums..
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
He's super important, and in blues it's like flamenco with regional styles. But much the same thing happened with blues, the homogenization, in that it blended together in Hollywood and other places outside the regular areas those styles were from when artists would go out and record.
Blues de la Frontera is like if Diego del Gastor and Lightnin' Hopkins had a musical love child. If that helps on your search of how funky modern toque' happened.
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
quote:
lorian, who is this? I like it
David Palomar's first album...but to be honest ...besides a couple of tracks i like the albums is a little try hard popish...i am not crazy about it, not sure why...and i am crazy about David Palomar..the audio example is not a accurate representation of the album
either way dont take my word...sure u can find some audio samples around and see if you like it
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
thanks. On youtube there are really cool videos of him with other people from cadiz having a lot of fun with bulerias and alegrias on this tv show. Love the cadiz scene. and these people are very very kind in person as well. You are right about the other mainstream stuff, no me guta tambien
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Careful Stephen. Todd might be policing and doesn't like 'he said, she said' posts that seek to establish some kind of authority. 'He' is a pronoun and does not really tell us much about the authority of the person in question.
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
For goodness sake, there's nothing wrong with citing other peoples ideas. It's worse if you claim them as your own and act like a know it all. Those ideas are just out there to think about not be a definitive last take on anything.
However I know what Todd means and there have been some internet flamenco experts in the past who've 'he she'd ' a subject to death. Not that I would name names.
And if Todd wants to arm wrestle with me fine, I can take any wimpy recording engineer.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
Remember the Question was about technological improvement ( eg use of metronomes and click tracks in studios..much more takes...multitracks etc)... and the compas being changed somewhat by this, I didn't mean to change it to another type of music , merely point out that people , when left to their own devices will play things faster or slower and change speed and have a different way of playing the whole thing, because we are not mechanical we naturally do it, maybe a subconcious choice to add to the music , The older recordings would not have been rehersed with digital timing , they rehersed with the people , they got it to feel comfortable and thats the way it was recorded.
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
quote:
Question is Is this a technological improvement ( eg use of metronomes and click tracks in studios..much more takes...multitracks etc)... or is it a question of improved ear and understanding of rithm and more attention and respect to compas, more detail..
perhaps even with dancing getting better and better and playing a bigger part in a more competitive market...accompanying guitarists rithm and compas had to get better and more spot on...?
whats your take ?
A lot of old recordings are just of guitar with voice, not a bunch of palmeros. If there were more recordings of live bulerias say with palmas like this, you might have gotten used to tight even or "round" compas all along.
I dont' think the above is cutting edge for its day, I think this type of steady grooving is very old. But you notice the "swing" is in the contra beats of the singing, and the palmas eventually do it too, and one guy doing jaleos marking the contras really hard (3:12). You can't do this so nice with elastic tempos you might have on just old cante and guitar recordings.
But at the same time, this unique solid rhythm environment is very loud with the palmas, guitars strumming full out the whole time etc. With PDL introducing the same type of contras the singers and jaleo and palmas offer above, but with his soft and sophisticated falsetas, there became a need to balance the sound of the palmas and stuff on recordings. That middle period there where you have some fancy guitar with palmas, you have the palmeros way across the room to balance with the guitar. Check this groove:
In modern times they don't even keep the palmeros in the room, you can loop it! I think Vicente is the first I noticed using looped palmas...nifty idea to achieve what I think is a very very old concept of keeping the juerga beat alive. So now the guitar can get as funky (off beat) as he wants with the confidence the palmas will never get the better of him, and also really exaggerate the dynamics of the music. Problem is, the modern loops lack the dynamics of changing patterns of old...but since the focus is meant to be on the singing or guitar it is pretty much acceptable, the music gets to breath and keep the feeling alive.
So I think you are really noticing the dynamics the music is allowed while the steady groove is always present....vs the old school thing of either elastic tempo, or no dynamics for the sake of the loud ass palmas.
To me tightness is tightness no matter what the dynamics, but for sure high fidelity and compression and loops help us hear the nuances that are lost on old recordings.
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
I really can listen the whole day to bulerias like the first video you just posted Ricardo. Very nice.
Nice comparation and view thou, I agree with that
About this recording of the buleria of paco something small and off topic: too bad there is so much compression that make it sound so pumpy. It's a shame some nice recording sessions are being way overcompressed. The worst off this example is Camaron - La Leyenda del tiempo. Some times I'm into listening to it, but then find it too emberrasing and confronting to listen to it because the sound of the record is so bad..
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Rmn)
quote:
too bad there is so much compression that make it sound so pumpy. It's a shame some nice recording sessions are being way overcompressed.
actually I think it is on topic, as in some cases it totally makes the difference what Florian is on about. It makes the music clear and uniform....perhaps "round" as he says. I also agree that it is way overdone a lot nowadays. It means players have to learn to play a certain way too so their dynamics can still be expressed knowing full well the loud parts will be squashed down.
But regarding Paco's records, I compare to some old records and notice it is a big fault of the remastering process. Not always a good thing unless the engineer really takes care about it. Even some CDs compressed get RE compressed on re issues and then it is REALLY bad. I think they just run it through a computer program, look at the wave form, and never listen to the thing. The worst re issue is Paco's Solo Quiero Caminar, even clipping I hear in spots that was not on the previous masters. Here is the same buleria but an older mix I found with less mastering: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=178199&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
I think it is ok to have some small compression for the sake of just listening to the thing in your car. Paco's most uncompressed recording is Concierto de Aranjuez, and it is almost un listenable in the car as you have to reach for that volume knob all the time. For cante CD's it can be nice so the guitar gets pushed back then comes back in for the falsetas, but I agree WAY too much nowadays is the trend.
RE: A question that might upset you (in reply to Florian)
wow, cool that you could abrakadabra an unmixed recording of paco de lucia just like that hahaha
Maybe it's stupid to say such a thing that I am going to say right now so forgive me if i'm wrong: I think in Spain for a long time (and still) the sound engineering was bad because of the poor knowledge, resources and material to work with. One of my teachers, a dutch guitarist called Eric vaarzon morel, told me this story of a flamenco group recording the whole thing and afterwards discovering that they had placed all the condenser mics (all the mics) the wrong way around (as in: with the sensetive side of the capsule not towards them). This how ever lead to a certain sound that made this cd caractaristic. But in terms of soundquality, I think it was pretty F***** u*
This is also with compressors (and certainly with reverb) I think some engineers in Spain don't know or don't have the technical experience to deal proparly with that. And I think the artists themselfs have a lot of affecting on that too. I mean when you compress the whole thing, then you can drop your technique to 50% (not in case of paco) because you can hear every detail much better and so for that you don't have to work so hard. Also they love reverb. Mah rebe, mah rebe!
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