Fast picados and the pinky

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apak

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010

Fast picados and the pinky

I noticed that the typical master players have the pinky of their right hand sticking out during their lightening picado runs.

My natural tendency when practicing picados is to have the pinky curled a bit inside towards the pal.

Is there a physiological advantage for the pinky to be way out there, or is it something that either naturally comes? I'm still sluggishly slow, but from what I can tell, the way I position the pinky has little influence on my maximum i-m alteration speed...

or does it help with the i-m-a picados/tremolo??

Either way I would appreciate if someone could shed some light on this so I know if it should or should not be deliberately practiced.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 6:09:46

CarloJuan

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

Hello apak,

What a serendipity it is to find someone on foro who is in the same boat as i am...haha

I was about to go and search in the archives about picado related articles and the first post that greeted me in this generel discussion forum was your post. What a coincidence.

Everybody wants to learn fast scales. But i think the key to learning how to play fast scales or picado runs is to train how to make your fingers relaxed all through out the scale.

Have you ever noticed, once a picado or scale run's duration is longer it's harder to make your fingers tensionless? The result of this tension is dictated by our inactive fingers, the a and c. Your c could be wandering about like an "austin powers" sign or could be curling up to the point that it's touching the palm. IMO it's both signs of tension, counterproductive tension.

Don't worry, my pinky is curling up as well but i try not to make it touch the palm. It's about midway curled. I believe that in this way, it could help the m (which is a slight weak dependent finger) through sympathetic motion (your other fingers moving as you move one finger). Having your other fingers totally straight (like PDL's at times or very curled) will impede your speed. But that's the thing that bothers me with PDL, his scale is so fast and rapidly insane but his pinky is flying and still he manages to do it.

I personally try not to make my little pink fly away (although it is the basic teaching in some flamenco books and schools, that when you do picado your pinky should be straight). It depends on each physiological make up i guess. I have a lot of thoughts running through my head now, and i have to go back to practice again...hehe. So keep me updated so that once i re-think the other ideas that i wanted to share, i could keep it fresh.

Good luck!

Carlo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 6:27:22

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

actually at first I was concerned same as you because my right pinky sticks out during picado, but later I checked and my pinky was moving in similar way to vicente amigo 's pinky so I was relieved .
but I think if your pinky is not an obstacle and it is not getting in the way of your picado so just relax and do it the way it suits you .. because you can't pretend and copy movements if you're not relaxed to do it , so don't force your pinky out because masters do it .. just play picado smoothly and in relaxed way

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 6:51:43

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

I think that the positions that are required to play whatever instrument are not "natural". They all need some specific stance that you have to train your muscles to get used to.
Like playing guitar you need to curl your fingers to touch the strings or lift your leg to paco position etc. I think if one plays long enough, the position becomes natural, because the body gets used to it and knows what muscle to use and what to relax.
Same thing with the pinky and picado. If you train your position and find out what muscles to use, eventually it will become natural.
There must be a reason why most of the flamenco maestros keep the pinky rised during picado, otherwise why would they do it. I dont know is it only style or does it have also function but it looks good and it seems to work so thats why I try to mimic it.
I would just choose one of the maestros that you like, who has more or less your hand/finger type, and copy his way.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 7:57:42

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

Just because you see Vicente, or Paco doing things, doesnt mean they are good or healthy for you.

The pinky sticking out is absolutely a sign of tension, and there are some classical players that have had career ending injuries because of things just like that. Players like Amigo, or Nunez are 1 in a billion. They have anatomical blessings that most dont have.

To see perfect technique, watch Grisha. Notice his pinky and anular fingers stay very relaxed when doing picado, and they move with the M finger slightly. That is the perfect technique, anatomically.
Makes perfect sense right? I mean, he can do 16ths at over 250bpm.
I dont think Paco has seen those numbers since he was a teenager, or maybe even never,...

I just posted my progress on picado in the mini picado challenge thread, and
you will see i do the same. I was very purposeful in making sure Anular and pinky fingers were relaxed, and moving slightly along with Middle finger when i began playing with conventional technique, and working on my picado.

Its working really well. I highly suggest it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 8:17:35

CarloJuan

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

Just because you see Vicente, or Paco doing things, doesnt mean they are good or healthy for you.

The pinky sticking out is absolutely a sign of tension, and there are some classical players that have had career ending injuries because of things just like that. Players like Amigo, or Nunez are 1 in a billion. They have anatomical blessings that most dont have.

To see perfect technique, watch Grisha. Notice his pinky and anular fingers stay very relaxed when doing picado, and they move with the M finger slightly. That is the perfect technique, anatomically.
Makes perfect sense right? I mean, he can do 16ths at over 250bpm.
I dont think Paco has seen those numbers since he was a teenager, or maybe even never,...

I just posted my progress on picado in the mini picado challenge thread, and
you will see i do the same. I was very purposeful in making sure Anular and pinky fingers were relaxed, and moving slightly along with Middle finger when i began playing with conventional technique, and working on my picado.

Its working really well. I highly suggest it.

Hey Todd!

That's great to hear. Finally what a relief to be blesses with your efforts in research in correct anatomical technique. Your post here sums it all, and to be honest with you i do patronize the same approach as you do. Moving the m with the sympathetic motion of a and c is a classical guitar technique i got out of Aaron Shearer's learn the classic guitar. I highly recommend it too. Please coach me with your new found approach to your picado.

the key is to consciously try to relax!!! :D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 9:24:55

apak

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to ToddK)

pffffttt... 16th at 250bpm? you mean 250*4=1000 hits per minute

I could do that too, if I turn back time to when I was 4 and practiced my scale runs 8 hours a day for the next 20 years.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 9:33:04

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Just because you see Vicente, or Paco doing things, doesnt mean they are good or healthy for you.

The pinky sticking out is absolutely a sign of tension,

This is exactly correct. Sticking your pinky out will definitely cause tension. As Todd points out, the X and A fingers have to stay relaxed. The A finger is attached to the same tendon as M, so if it is relaxed it should move sympathetically with M.

Curling them up and under causes even more tension. Interestingly though, when playing a picado run, Sabicas used to curl up X and A a little bit. Of course he was self taught from childhood, so he probably just developed it that way.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 21:15:57

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

this is what ricardo had to say from a picado thread awhile ago. i thought it was pretty interesting.

quote:

This issue came up many years ago at FT. As you point out, "tension" in the pinky is unnecessary, but several players doing something weird with the pinky end up with tons of speed and control anyway. I feel like it is not a main contributing factor to speed.

When I first started playing with fingers, I used to tuck my fingers up into my palm when doing picado (see Riqueni and some others, Sabicas maybe???), after seeing vids of Paco and Tomatito, I made conscience effort to keep the pinky and ring OUT, and the result is my pinky does the same deal as vicente here, and Tomatito, etc. It definantly made my hand feel better then it DID, but not sure if it slowed me down. The tension I personally feel is kind of natural, I never really noticed it or felt pain or tired when doing lots of picado. It is not so tense that it is like a tight fist, one could easily push it down while I was playing. But who knows? If it try to let the pinky down on purpose, my hand feels REALLY strange and not in control as normal.

Anyway, other fast players do weird things with the pinky. When doing arps Nuñez and Tomatito EXTEND the pinky then curl it, it looks really weird. Paco de lucia sticks his pinky out sideways for picado, which again if I try that my had feels MORE tense then when I curl it up.

Manolo sanlucar has a super relaxed hand, no weird pinky moves or anything, yet he is not exactly the picado monster that some of the others above are.

Ricardo

i saw emilio maya up close and he does the same thing with the pinky along with a few other players.

personally, i haven't decided what's best but i guess i'll find in a few months.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 21:28:24

CarloJuan

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

but there is some videos where i see paco not extending the pinky at all. weird, in some of his old videos search it up...monasterio de sal. he seems inconsistent but still his impeccable technique does not fail him

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 4:53:30

CarloJuan

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

here is super extended pinky

watch the picado bit where there is a slight close up on his hand and you'll notice nothing going on with his pinky. it's very short but you'll catch it

now im confused...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 4:56:56

orsonw

Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to CarloJuan)

The last few months I've noticed more tension in my right hand, particularly the A and X fingers. It's because since joining the foro last year, I'm changing technique. When learning new motor skills we often have assosciated and uneccessary muscle contraction. Like when children learn to write they stick out their tongue or guitarists make a strange face when they play. As we learn the motor pattern we get better at just using what is needed. I think the tension in the little finger is like this. Whatever the greats do or don't do, surely it must be better not to have any extra tension in the hand?
Thanks to this thread I have been looking at my little finger during picado and arpeggio and it is extending; if I manage to consciously relax it, everything feels better so this may be something to work on and see if it helps me, thanks everyone for your posts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 7:29:03

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

I believe in general yoga-for-guitarists isn't a bad idea.

Don't focus on the fingers alone to much, but also pay attention to the muscles in your lower arm also.
Move every finger separately and feel whats happening in the lower arm.

Unfortunately I can't speak of experience, but total body relaxation is the goal to aim imo.

Towards the pinky it looks that when it is pushed outwards, it makes it easier to form a straight wrist and stay close to the strings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 7:44:04

por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to kozz)

It's an interesting topic and I'll add my two cents here.

I'm all for extending the pinky. It seems to be like one of those "correct" tensions and my picados have come a long way since I've started to consciously do that (although I still have a looong way to go).

(And CarloJuan, don't be too confused about the Paco video - everyone tries different techniques at different stages of their development, even Paco!

)

I can only speak for myself of course

. I guess it's just like most other things about the guitar - how it's done is different for everyone as long as it's Flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 8:25:13

orsonw

Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to por medio)

quote:

I'm all for extending the pinky. It seems to be like one of those "correct" tensions

Interesting, I guess we all have to experiment and find what works individually. Certainly there are great players who do extend and also those who do not.
Hand anatomy and musculature is complex and there is anatomical variation between individuals e.g to what degree there is inter-connection between tendons attaching to different fingers, relative size of muscles and even absence of some muscles, variations in joint mechanics, relative finger length etc...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 13:13:50

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 20 2010 20:53:10

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 20:39:58

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

clips like this makes me wanna quit playing the guitar

Man!! Paco makes me super depressed

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 20:54:24

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to Elie)

Darkeliedraven, He is from another galaxy. I still think to this day, there is no guitar player who can match him in technique and that is not including his gift for composition, musicality, etc..... Of course he is getting older now and is nowhere near that level of playing anymore which is a shame but is a true genius.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 21:02:40

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

I agree 1000% my friend , he's a true genius , he's unbelievable
btw thanx for posting that vid

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 21:17:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14881
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

A lot of guitarists that might seem to have tension still have a very flamenco tone which is the most important part of picado. Don't worry about speed so much as sound and rhythm.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 21:19:18

BarkellWH

Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Don't worry about speed so much as sound and rhythm.

AMEN, Ricardo. I don't understand the cult of "faster is better" in picado that many who aspire to play flamenco think is the apex of great playing. It can be, but it is not necessarily so. Too often speed is used as a way to dazzle onlookers, in the way that cheap parlor tricks were once used to amuse house guests.

Cheers,

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 21:59:36

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

Too often speed is used as a way to dazzle onlookers, in the way that cheap parlor tricks were once used to amuse house guests.

its always used to dazzle onlookers...come to think of it so its any aspect of flamenco guitar technique

if you gonna think like that the same can be said about any extremely well performed technique ..fast rasqueado, fast alzapua...

flamenco guitar has 2 important characteristics....the music obviously but also just as important u cant denie the taking technique it to its limits...or as you put it "dazzeling onlookers" ...that's flamenco guitar for you...its all about overdoing it, and impressing with your technique Paco , Nunes, EL Viejin, Amigo, Riqueni, Rosario, Jeronimo, TOmatito, almost every single guitarist i can think of aims for excelling in a particular technique or more and does it

the reason picado is such a big hitt is because everyone knows that you dont just pick up the guitar and have greate sounding fast picado...it takes years and years of effective practice..so yes it is "dazzling" its also the clearest we have of measuring a players technical abilities ...after a few years anyone can play a greate falseta, anyone can play in compas anyone can do rasqueado...not everyone can do "dazzelin" picados...theres no flamenco players with great picados that suck at any other flamenco technique...its always the last thing you acquire

i dont wanna live in a world where being very good at a technique as a result of years of practice is looked down upon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 1:31:56

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

quote:

Paco , Nunes, EL Viejin, Amigo, Riqueni, Rosario, Jeronimo, TOmatito, almost every single guitarist i can think of aims for excelling in a particular technique or more and does it

right on. the old players were ahead of their time with technique too. having great technique just means there's more potential for your musical ideas.

ok, how's this. alegrias is around 140-165. there's a particular picado run that i want to play because i think it sounds nice and its musical. i dont really care about impressing anyone. is that a crime?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 3:26:10

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to apak)

quote:

Don't worry about speed so much as sound and rhythm

That's so right.
but the point is ' as jg said ' Paco is from another galaxy he does some techniques that looks impossible to me at extreme speeds. it's physically impossible IMO .
I kinda believe in this " Have The Strength But Don't Use It " and what I feel is that he has the ultimate non-ending strength

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 4:06:12

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ok, how's this. alegrias is around 140-165. there's a particular picado run that i want to play because i think it sounds nice and its musical. i dont really care about impressing anyone. is that a crime?

I say if in this day and age you can manage to "dazzle" anyone with any aspect of your playing..keep doing it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 5:54:36

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to Florian)

quote:

its also the clearest we have of measuring a players technical abilities ...after a few years anyone can play a greate falseta, anyone can play in compas anyone can do rasqueado...not everyone can do "dazzelin" picados...theres no flamenco players with great picados that suck at any other flamenco technique...its always the last thing you acquire

Measuring the speed of picado to determine how advanced/technical a guitarist is is not something i would do. I met plenty of guitarists in spain with fast picado who lacked other techniques. Everyone has strong and weak points when compared against each other. Someone who loves and practices fast picado will develop it prior to other techniques.

I agree with Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 6:52:09

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

Paco , Nunes, EL Viejin, Amigo, Riqueni, Rosario, Jeronimo, TOmatito, etc. etc.

so what other aspect of their techniques have they neglected ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 7:05:28

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to Florian)

quote:

.theres no flamenco players with great picados that suck at any other flamenco technique...its always the last thing you acquire

Hey Flo,

I am responding to this

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 7:09:45

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to KMMI77)

yes i know...but it still applies...u dont get greate picado if you dont have good rasqueado or rithm etc...

i still belive theres no player with Greate picado who isnt at the very least average on the other techniques...

and i understand what u saying, its not all about picado and speed, ofcourse its not... but if one acquires it lets not make it into something bad...its something to be proud about

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 7:13:41

orsonw

Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Fast picados and the pinky (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Don't worry about speed so much as sound and rhythm.

I want all three please!

I agree that speed alone is meaningless, but an artist who has speed in their vocabulary has more options. I think that technique and artistic expression inform each other, they're not mutually exclusive; of course in the wrong hands they can be, then we are not talking about the merits of fast picado but just bad taste measured by our own opinions.

Onwards to fast picado!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 7:55:58