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PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos?
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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 RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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quote:
I have not read either of what I think are the only two full biographies of Paco – one by Pohren about the whole family, and one by Paco Sevilla
i have, at least, i've read the Paco Sevilla one. He says;
"His [Paco's] father and his brother were his primary teachers" p4
He quotes Paco as saying, "When I was about ten, I was taking in great quantities of Niño Ricardo's music. He used to visit my father in Algeciras.... I ended up possessing his music.... Before that, I studied for hours with my father, doing my first finger exercises under his approving eye." p5
The same book also says Paco's brother Ramon toured as second guitarist with Juanito Valderrama and Niño Ricardo in the late fifties. p5
In the early sixties Paco joined José Greco's company and toured the States, meeting Sabicas, who encouraged Paco to play his own music, and also Mario Escudero, who introduced Paco to the music of Esteban Sanlucar. Paco was third guitarist in the company after Ricardo Modrego and Manolo Barón (uncle of Manolo Franco). pp 9- 13
Of his meeting with Sabicas Paco is quoted as saying; "...at that time I played only the music of Niño Ricardo. I don't know exactly why he said to me what he did, but I do know that he influenced me a great deal. He told me that a guitarist should play his own music, that he didn't have to copy anybody." "From that time on, I forgot everything I knew of Ricardo's" p12
It continues "That summer of '64 found Paco still training under the tutelage of his father." p14
From there Paco continues touring and starts recording. No mention of any other guitar teachers.
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Date Aug. 17 2010 21:57:44
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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quote:
I would still be curious to know
Fath told me that he got the story direct from Paco de Malaga.
Marija Temo says she will try to verify one way or the other next time she sees Manolo Leiva, who would probably be the most reliable living source other then PdL himself. I don't know if Anita is still alive. She might know too.
I do know this: Ramos never made this claim to me, but I also know he was too modest to ever mention it unless asked directly, and I never even thought to ask him directly. He asked me who I listened to when I started lessons with him. Sabicas, Nino Ricardo, Ramon Montoya sprang to mind (I was 12 at the time, in 1962), and, of course, I went to El Bodegon every chance I got, and had Carlos' record of solos, and the one with Escudero. The conversation turned to the fact that Ramon Montoya was Carlos' mentor (you can certainly hear the influence in the falsetas), and that Sabicas and Carlos were taking lessons from Montoya at the same time.
He asked me why I didn't mention Carlos Montoya . . . I was embarrassed by the fact that I didn't like his playing much. I think that was when Carlos decided to take me as a student. Never a criticism of Montoya, though. Nor a mention of PdL.
I have some 45's from the mid 60's of PdL and Camaron, but I don't know when their earliest recording was. Probably was 45 rpm. . . anybody know offhand? Maybe '62 was too early for PdL to be as famous to a 12-year old as Nino Ricardo and Sabicas.
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
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Date Aug. 21 2010 1:13:45
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
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quote:
Sabicas and Carlos were taking lessons from Montoya at the same time.
I have never in my life heard that Sabicas took lessons from Ramon Montoya. It seems highly improbable. The way I have always heard the story from multiple sources, including directly from Mario Escudero, who was as close to Sabicas as anyone, was that Sabicas never really had a teacher, and simply started learning and playing on his own at the age of five or so. And he was performing from the age of around eight.
I begin to suspect that this all may be a question of semantics. These days, when we say "lessons" or "teacher" etc., we know what we mean – a formal arrangement between teacher and student, and one that usually goes on for some period of time. Very possibly back then there would naturally have been intercourse between flamenco guitarists, and an exchange and discussion of musical ideas, and even some falsetas, or parts. Probably some discussion on various aspects of technique, all this much like goes on today among guitarists, and even right here on this forum. So if Sabicas was sitting around chatting with Ramon Montoya, and maybe Carlos Ramos was there at the same time, all of them naturally with guitars in hand, if Montoya imparted a tidbit or two, that might be described by one of them as a "lesson," thereby making Montoya the "teacher." We know that Paco met Sabicas, he could easily have also met Ramos, and maybe Ramos showed him a thing or two. It's very hard to define what Ramos might have meant by that, if in fact he did say it.
_____________________________
Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Aug. 21 2010 2:46:29
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