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how much for dance class ? $
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Paleto
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
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 RE: how much for dance class ? $ (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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My experience is that student dancers don't give a $hit about much except that you have compas, that they can recognize where they're supposed to be from what you're playing and that you know when to slow, speed, play softer or louder as their choreograph suggests.
Depending upon how many dancers there are they might hardly hear you unless you are playing through a PA or amp.
If you have to lug a system across town to do it, set it up and then break it down, they should pay, and don't let 'em talk you into it for free, at least gas plus $20 or something.
It's a good, humbling experience to do it, but it really helps when there's someone who knows what to play for dance. Each of those students (if they are students) may be limited because they have only experienced a certain way of playing a particular song type. There are some standard introductions, chord changes, remates, llamadas etc. that you should learn from someone who accompanies dance in Phoenix, preferably he who plays at their regular class, that way you're all on the same page.
I hope you do it, you'll learn a lot.
Watch your left hand pressure, when you try to play loud the left hand starts using the "death grip", try not to fall into that. I caught myself doing it so many times.....
Most of all, learn to laugh at your mistakes and try to have fun. And be sure to find some crazy ways to play sevillanas to keep that as fun as possible.
Anthony
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Date Dec. 15 2004 3:09:44
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bailoro2000
Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
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RE: how much for dance class ? $ (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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For what it's worth.
Dance classes can be very frustrating places to be, both for students and guitarists, if they are the "once or maybe twice a week" variety" where much stop and start repitition goes on due to students having a lot to remember. This needs a lot of patience from the guitarist, sometimes to distraction point.
It isn't that dancers don't care as long as it's in compas, they have to learn to recognise musical guides whilst remembering steps etc. In beginner and intermediate classes most teachers teach maybe three palos per session (at least in most classes I've attended) , a sevillanas session, then maybe tangos and bulerias. This is due to having to cram a lot into short sessions. In addition, because I was usually the only male and didn't do tangos, some time was devoted to me learning things like paso-doble/
sacromonte etc. A lot of our music was taped, and again with much stopping and starting by the teacher.
The guitarist deserves his payment for time but the class has to be decently attended as a lot of teachers hire room space rather then own the studio. This is more so with workshops by visiting teachers etc. Add the room hire and electricity, the teacher fees and the guitarists time and you can see why a lot of classes fail unless they can keep up a decent attendance level. The guitarist is regarded as being at teacher level and can get a lot of stick from the dance teacher if what they play isn't just right. Sevillanas in particular can be a very slow process with new students. Even with tapes a lot of time is wasted in rewinding and repeating things over and over again.
All this said, a live guitarist adds atmosphere to a class and students benefit from learning to work with them. A lot of love of the art is required by all in order to promote a succesful class and a lot of students drop out when they realise how much work is involved. Then again, who said anything about flamenco was easy? I've spent enough time travelling an hour and a half each way by bus and train in lousy weather to do three hours of damned hard work on Sunday afternoons and racing home from a days work to get to weeknight classes to know. And I was the one doing the paying. That's flamenco (-:
Jim
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Date Dec. 15 2004 7:47:31
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Paleto
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
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RE: how much for dance class ? $ (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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My attitude is that you should get the same as they get, period.
The few one time gigs I have been asked to put together, I paid everyone the same, including myself.
Actually, Tom is right in his post, but I do think the guitarist should be paid as if it were a job. Compensation is only fair when effort is put forth. That way when you get a call from them again, you've developed a sense that everyone is equally important and this would be ideal. Even if you're a student, you'll respect them that much more for their forthright sharing of profits.
A good friend of mine explained that some local guitarist would get a call for a gig, then get a second call for a gig the same night, accept both gigs, take the higher paying one for himself, and pay only a portion of the other gig money to another guitarist - I think that's BS. The entire amount from the gig he didn't should be paid to the guitarist actually doing the gig. Watch for this kind of crap. Not that I think everyone is out to cheat at all, but there are those who will.
My 2 cents anyway.
Anthony
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Date Dec. 15 2004 15:38:33
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: how much for dance class ? $ (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Anthony,
most gigging musicians do exactly what you said. In Phoenix, almost all of the agencies are run by ex-gigging musicians. I played a couple of gigs in October where the musicians I played with skimmed some money off the top. I could tell because of the unusual $ they gave me. It doesn't matter to me. Rainmaking is where it's at--people who have the ability to get gigs can do whatever they want, because gigs are gold. It doesn't matter how good of a player you are if you don't get paid.
I actually get double booked sometimes, and I had some friends I would refer the gigs to. But you know what? These friends never returned the favor. So now I don't refer them anymore gigs. I refer the gigs to people that refer gigs to me--that's business, amigo!
Remember that I do this guitar thing for a living, and I have to think opportunity cost and things like that. Although I don't know much about accompanying, I don't know much about weddings, either, that doens't mean I expect to pay the bride and groom when I play the processional march.
Anthony, I wouldn't take two gigs and send someone else on the other gig. That's a good way to ruin your reputation. If, as a musician, you establish a reputation for punctuality, a good look, good sound and playing, and high professionalism, and you send some "dude" to your gig, you are probably going to lose that customer. I agree with you here. When a musician treats the service he provides as a commodity then he becomes a commodity--in other words, interchangeable, replaceable, disposable.
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Date Dec. 15 2004 15:45:41
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Mark2
Posts: 1882
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: how much for dance class ? $ (in reply to Paleto)
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Dance class should pay 20.00 an hour if you know how to do it. If not, you take anything you can get. The teacher is the reason the students are there, not the guitarist. The guitarist is there to help, but if the teacher is good, then the students are coming with or without the guitar. You can't equate the money you get from classes with a solo gig. You do the classes for the joy of playing for dance or because you want to learn how to do it, and maybe get dance gigs in the future. Those dance gigs will also not compare in money to solo gigs, but the training will better your playing a lot. Many dancers are used to working for little or no money, and don't understand that a guitarist can make a lot of money on a solo or group gig. Finally, the whole idea that a leader of a group should not be paid more is something I don't agree with, but , it depends on the compensation involved, and the situation.
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Date Dec. 15 2004 19:40:51
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Paleto
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
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RE: how much for dance class ? $ (in reply to Mark2)
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Lot's of different opinions here, but the one theme is that people are respectful, which is why people tend to stay around here, at least the know they aren't going to be lashed.
In any case, effort put forth should be rewarded, the $$ matters less, except I guess when it's how you're making a living.
My experience with dancers is that they aren't afraid to ask for $500 or more for a performance, that may be related to San Diego being a place with a bit of a market though.
Of course novices tend to be easier to please, I mean in terms of payment.
I agree with Michael, a guitarist who sends a substitute, while retaining a good portion of the payment becomes a commodity himself. I think Marx would have approved.
I would do as MdM said, just refer the gig to a friend, if possible.
Anthony
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Date Dec. 16 2004 4:12:09
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Ricardo
Posts: 14889
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: how much for dance class ? $ (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Well it all comes down to this. Are the dancers good? Are the dancers hot? If they are good, and you think you are not in their calibur, be glad to be working w/ them and accept whatever they offer. If they are hot, than just tell them to pay what ever they think is fair. If they are neither, than charge what ever it is worth to YOU. Meaning add in gas, strings, 2 capos, picks (if your name is Todd), time, CDs, videos, lunch, dinner, depreciation on the sound system and guitar, etc, plus 20$ for the fact you play flamenco vs "standards". So good luck!
Ricardo
PS Miguel, you are from Phoenix? Perhaps you know this cool flamenco dancer chick named Tamara Sol Flys. I work with her occasinally, and she is headed back there this x-mas. Take care.
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Date Dec. 16 2004 9:22:28
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: how much for dance class ? $ (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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I assumed Ricardo was RichardM.
Yeah, well these dancers aren't particularly good, nor are they hot. Plus, I'm married. Hey, aren't you married, Richard!!? I don't know... to tell you the truth I don't really like flamenco dance, it would almost be like going to the gym for me--something I know is good for me, but I don't even want to do! Now if there were a cantaor, I would be excited to learn how to play for him...
As far as Tamara, I think I have met her, and I hear her name all the time, but she must run in different circles.
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Date Dec. 16 2004 14:44:48
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