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Thoughts?
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aeolus
Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier
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 RE: Thoughts? (in reply to KMMI77)
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Unless I misunderstand you, you find the rhythm in music moves you, or at least satisfies you, the most and flamenco with its complex rhythms, is your preferred genre. Rhythms found in the most primitive African societies display a complex polyphonic style and perhaps that is at the basis of the rhythms of flamenco. But then you go on to talk about magic in any style of music and you lost me. Maybe you meant "this" magic, i.e. rhythm and that can't be argued as for instance rock with its heavy loud beat that produces the emotional high in the participants and that would be the point of all music as well as dance and spoken poetry, according to Garcia Lorca. .So one might be questing for more than mere satisfaction, i.e., an altered state of consciousness.. Which leads to duende which, as I understand Lorca, is inspiration that springs from the irrational, the Dionysian side of our nature. But, as he says, the demon cannot be summoned at will We in our 21st century world of computers and distractions, might be too removed, too disconnected, from the elemental to expect a visit from the demon in our playing. .
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Date Nov. 29 2009 13:58:59
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HemeolaMan
Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago
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RE: Thoughts? (in reply to KMMI77)
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As a scholar of music, I must emphasize how hard it is to write about why music "does" or "evokes" anything. I think the more pertinent point is to ask why people associate things with music. For that matter, try to explain why people try to explain music... A quest for context?
Much like literary criticism, as seen best with J.D. Salinger, I find that so much extramusical association is simply self serving. The point is, if it is in the music, its in the music. If it is not in the music it is not in the music. No solea or bulerias falseta has any intrinsic meaning without an association with a human being, whether that human is playing or listening. Now, the real question is, if a falseta is composed in total serialism (serial rows of both notes and rhythms) by a computer and played back in total isolation with no human involvement, does it still carry meaning? No, of course not. Why does that differ than any other music? It doesn't. Music derives meaning from the listener's context. If that were not true, then everyone who heard a piece of music, regardless of context, would think feel or understand it in the same way. Thus, Music is not a universal language, nor does it carry intrinsic meaning.
quote:
"It is frequently asserted that "music is a universal [or international] language," a "meta-language" that expresses universal human emotions and transcends the barriers of language and culture.
The problems with this analogy are many. First, music is not a language, at least not in the sense of conveying specific meanings through specific symbols, in standard patterns analogous to syntax, and governed by rules of structure analogous to grammar. While attempts have been made to analyze music in linguistic terms, these ultimately fail because music is of a totally different realm than language. Second, it is questionable whether music really can transcend linguistic barriers and culturally determined behaviors, through some form of emotional communication so fundamentally human that all respond in the same way. What we have seen does not support this idea, unfortunately, and we do not believe such a concept to be useful in examining the world's musics."
Miller and Shahriari, The Center for Study of World Musics, Kent State University.
I also think, and i am not alone, that Rhythm must have some bio/physiological significance to most people as evidenced by basic human cycles (circadian rhythms etc). I don't know if that includes rhythm in music, or simply biologically programmed and naturally regulated rates of decomposition etc. But, It's far more relevant to examine the cultural impact of rhythmic importance. Some cultures are rhythm oriented, some are not. For example, most west European "common practice" music is indeed, rhythmically uneventful. However, it is arguably one of the most Harmonically complex and melodically varied. Indian music has a cyclic rhythm structure and various raga's (think of them as modes and motivic patterns) for melodic exploration. One could argue that it is harmonically rich, but I would attribute that to trans-cultural proliferation that is more recent than the "traditional" music we are referencing. Still more confusing, Javanese and Balinese gamelan music. These are intensely polyrhythmic and intensely harmonic. The harmonies, however, are individual melodies. So, Where is the most emphasis? Hard to say. What i can say is that anyone born in an african tribe that participates in cultural drumming is going to be far more rhythmically aware than someone who does little else but listen to Enya.
So where does that leave us? is rhythm in fact a nature and non nurture thing? I heartily disagree. I am certain that most of my life I have had a disparity between my rhythmic execution and my ability to understand rhythm. My mental understanding has always been far more accurate and complex than my ability to physically execute. But, to you I may have seemed rhythmically unsophisticated, but I may in fact be composing incredibly sophisticated poly rhythms with lush harmonies in my head. Of course, these days I am far better and far more stable in my rhythmic execution because I practice and am now interested in music where part of the culture is RHYTHM!!!
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"A semiotic view of music asserts that the musical sound itself is a "neutral" symbol that has no inherent meaning. Music is thus thought of as a 'text' or 'trace' that has to be interpreted. In a process called the poeietic, the creator of the music encodes meanings and emotions into the "neutral" composition or performance, which is then interpreted by anyone listening to the music, a process called the esthesic. Each individual listener's interpretation is entirely the result of cultural conditioning and life experience.
Obviously, then, when the creator and listener are from completely different backgrounds, miscommunication is almost inevitable. When, for example, an Indian musician performs what is called a raga, he or she is aware of certain emotional feelings or meaning associated with that raga. An audience of Europeans with little knowledge of Indian music or culture must necessarily interpret the music according to their own experience and by the norms of their society's music. They are unlikely to hear things as an Indian audience would, being unaware of culturally determined associations between, say, specific ragas and particular times of the day. Such miscommunication inevitably contributes to the problem of ethnocentrism: the assumption that one's own cultural patterns are normative and that those that differ are 'strange,' 'exotic,' or 'abnormal."
Terry E. Miller & Andrew Shahriari "World Music, A Global Journey" Routledge, New York, NY 2006
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Date Nov. 29 2009 15:20:59
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: Thoughts? (in reply to KMMI77)
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Concerning duende, this is from Claus Schreiner's Introduction to the book Flamenco: Gypsy Dance and Music from Andalusia:
"Even so articulate a flamenco artist as Juan F. Talegas was only able to give his questioner this unsatisfying answer when queried about duende: 'Nonsense! Where did you foreigners ever get this idea of duende? From Garcia Lorca maybe? Duende, it's like a fever, like malaria. I had the duende only twice in my life, but afterwards they had to carry me out.'
"Duende has been called the demon that puts flamencos in a trance. But the very nature of cante jondo contradicts all trance theories. We know, for instance, from trance states induced by mediums in Afro-American culture, that a stammered singsong may be possible, but certainly not the intellectual-emotional exertion of body and soul required by cante jondo."
Concerning the source(s) of the pleasure of listening to flamenco, surely one of the most potent aspects of cante, especially cante, is the pleasure derived on the part of the listener (and also the singer), as tension is built up--along with the growing anticipation and excitement at the prospect of its release--and then is released. The release can be short and explosive, as in well-sung fandangos, or can be slower, more controlled, as in alegrias or siguiriyas. People usually talk about this as the "orgasm" theory of music, and the metaphor is apt. There are other sources of enjoyment in hearing flamenco as well.
runner
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Date Nov. 30 2009 6:29:14
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Ricardo
Posts: 14826
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Thoughts? (in reply to HemeolaMan)
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quote:
quote:
"It is frequently asserted that "music is a universal [or international] language," a "meta-language" that expresses universal human emotions and transcends the barriers of language and culture.
The problems with this analogy are many. First, music is not a language, at least not in the sense of conveying specific meanings through specific symbols, in standard patterns analogous to syntax, and governed by rules of structure analogous to grammar. While attempts have been made to analyze music in linguistic terms, these ultimately fail because music is of a totally different realm than language. Second, it is questionable whether music really can transcend linguistic barriers and culturally determined behaviors, through some form of emotional communication so fundamentally human that all respond in the same way. What we have seen does not support this idea, unfortunately, and we do not believe such a concept to be useful in examining the world's musics."
Miller and Shahriari, The Center for Study of World Musics, Kent State University.
Anyone can get a foreign film with no subtitles, and from hearing the music, understand more or less the emotional aspect at a certain point in the film. It is obvious, even if you don't understand the technical reasons for what you feel when you hear something. Perhaps it is associated after experiencing a feeling many times.
About modes, think of this, if you understand the sound:
Lydian- bright, nostalgic, exciting, something good is going to happen
Ionian- happy, triumphant, something good DID happen.
Mixolydian-bluesy, but still happy-ish, or rather something good needs to happen.
Dorian- a darker bluesy, maybe a little sad. Something good is not going to happen.
Aeolian- dark and down right sad, something bad happened.
Phrygian- very dark, perhaps painful or even scary. Something bad will happen.
Locrian- dark and disturbing.
I would say in most musics, these modes create distinct moods, or at least communicate a possible emotional setting. Imagine a horror film with all happy Ionian, lydian or mixolydian melodies. Or a comedy with the music all Phyrgian and locrian or minor sounding.
There can always be exceptions of course, and not every person is in tune to things that are trying to be conveyed.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 30 2009 19:53:01
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: Thoughts? (in reply to KMMI77)
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quote:
3: a state of profound abstraction or absorption--trance-like
"Trance-like" is probably the best description of that state that most performing musicians experience from time to time – when the music comes out of you in a way that seems as though it's coming from somewhere else. Or from someone else, through you. And it's not confined to music. As a writer I have experienced this state more than once, where the writing for no discernible reason just comes pouring out so fast, fluently, and effortlessly that it truly seems as though someone else is actually doing the writing, and I'm just the instrument through which it is being realized physically. During such "states," if that's what they are, I cannot stop writing, will not stop for anything – not to eat, nothing – and the writing thus produced is invariably of a higher quality than my "non-state" writing, and in addition it always requires less revision, revision being an integral part of writing. So this state, experienced by so many, might possibly have a supernatural explanation.
EDIT: ""Supernatural" in this context not meaning "demons" etc., but rather just the first dictionary definition given – "of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is explainable by natural laws or phenomena."
_____________________________
Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Dec. 19 2009 7:54:48
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: Thoughts? (in reply to KMMI77)
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Kris, regarding our evolving into future states of enhanced trance, it may well be that, in exchange for greater rationality, we have somewhat lost or lessened our ability to attain a trance state. Consider our animal cousins: the cheetah or lioness using every bit of concealment and stealth to creep up on her prey, then the mad pursuit, just as an example. A case can be made that the lives of all other animals are lived in a state of hyper-awareness and immersion in the present that constitutes the trance state.
Regarding being bored by flamenco, this, I believe, is far less likely if your focus is on cante--which is the heart and soul and reason for the emotional power of flamenco. For more than a century, the role of the guitarist in flamenco was to provide tasteful, unobtrusive, empathetic support for the singer. The occasional concert forays and solo recordings by R. Montoya, Sabicas, etc., weren't enough to overturn this essential relationship. The coming of PdL and the growth of an international but uninformed "audience" for guitar virtuosity as constituting flamenco reflected the stark fact that the appreciation of authentic flamenco cante is, really, only for the few. But for those few, cante provides an inexhaustible source of emotional and musical richness, that can be mined over and over again. We are fortunate that we have, on YouTube and on CDs, great cante, properly accompanied by guitarists who knew what they were about, from many decades past, to the early years of the Twentieth century. Dig into this treasure, and you'll never be bored. For starters, just enter, for instance, Terremoto de Jerez on YouTube, and you'll see/hear what I mean.
runner
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Date Dec. 19 2009 8:02:58
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So many thoughts, variables and contradictions for me to define. It is interesting for me to read your opinions and examine the way you guys think about and approach music. Thanks for taking the time to reply, Cheers 
'Continues' I thought we had come to a full stop a while back ! The evolution will not be televised 