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at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

seguirilla? 
ok, a noob question. is a seguirilla and a seguiriya the same thing?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2009 23:58:29
 
michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
hello
i would say yes, there are different possibilities to write it (siguiriyas, seguidillas etc..)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 1:29:33
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
see, this is what's confusing. after looking some siguirillas up on youtube, it would appear that it's the same thing as seguiriya.

but then i just listened to this seguirilla track by vicente amigo and el pele and it sounds like it's in fours.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 2:19:49
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
Don' think that's right. What's the name of the track? Do you have a link?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 2:32:23
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
http://www.musica4all.com/202393/el-pele-vicente-amigo-acontecio.html

the player is on the left side in white. either my compas with seguiriyas is really ****ty or something weird is going on.

i'm hearing those two bass notes as "& 1"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 3:34:59
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
COOL! It's siguiriya rhythm, but the beginning can trick you as the intro is played 4/4. During the singing listen the the percussion, the accents are 8, 10, 12, 3, 6. Think in tempo ca. 100bpm.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 3:41:50
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
quote:

is a seguirilla and a seguiriya the same thing?


double "l" is pronounced "y" so they are the same thing


quote:

just listened to this seguirilla track by vicente amigo and el pele and it sounds like it's in fours.


the track "Aconteció" on Canto?

it's a bit weird for sure,

the intro sounds like it's in 4's,

but at 1:05 the guitar plays what sounds like a llamada/cierre

and at 1:09 the handclaps start clearly marking the accents-

1 (+) 2 (+) 3 (+ a) 4 (+ a) 5 (+) [or however you want to count it]


edit:
hello, you guys made 2 more posts while i wrote this!

i can't get the link to work anyway
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 3:53:59
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
ok, thanks guys. i can hear the palmas on 8, 10, 12, 3, 6 now.

BUT those sob bass thuds are still in fours. right? that was throwing me off.

so now, what's a seguidilla? i looked it up on youtube and it looks like a classical thing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 4:34:07
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
Yeah that's right, I love it when they play around with rhythms like that, like Pitingo's "Soulerias". You can often hear modern Bulerias with accents in 2's.

Seguidilla is a lighter form of folklore dance from which the Sevillanas eventually originated.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 4:55:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
REgarding the word:
Siguiriya
seguiriya
seguirilla
siguirilla
seguidilla

All different miss spellings of the same word. 2 kinds of song forms, one is flamenco, the other is classical spanish. Panaderos that is famous played by Paco written by Esteban de sanlucar, is based on the classical song form.

Likewise Solea is short for Soleares which is a miss spelled Soledades. Also you have the same name for different song forms from latin america like Tango, Rumba, Guajira, Etc. Colombiana confuses people on youtube for sure!! People try to show some connection of the word to the different musics (as if some where hidden inside the music is some connection) but it is just a name IMO. Don't let the miss spelling or double usage bother you.

About Pele.
The subdivision IS rumba accent, but it is double or quadruple time over top a very slow siguiriyas. So 6 Rumba compases=one compas of Siguiriyas. Only one accent is displaced (count 3 of the 4th rumba compas is accented). The intro they fool you into thinking it is Rumba because of the subdivision, and only when the palmas and cante enter are you aware of the underlying accent pattern. Cool idea. Also it is an example of true and pure modal music....the harmony or chord that Vicente plays NEVER Changes....it just drones on the C# for the entire song.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 6:44:59
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
thanks for the clarification, everyone.

great analysis, ricardo!

i think it's a cool idea but it gives me a headache when i listen to it. maybe if that four pulse wasn't so strong.

i've head an alegrias with accents in twos as well. it bugs me because i keep thinking it's picking up to change or something.

does vicente have any other seguiriyas?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 16:53:23
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
quote:

Likewise Solea is short for Soleares which is a miss spelled Soledades.


I´ve been told something else. Soleá is when you sing all letras from one distinct region in one song. (Alcalá, Triana, Cadiz etc) Soleares is when you sing letras from different regions in one song. I´ve never analyzed it, so I just say that its what I´ve been told and lots of things have been said.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2009 23:19:42
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Likewise Solea is short for Soleares which is a miss spelled Soledades


i know this is gonna seem picky, but.... isn't "soleares" the phonetic spelling of the andaluz pronunciation of "soledades" rather than a mis-spelling?

i would guess the flamenco form has always been written as "soleares" becuase noone who sung it or played it ever actually pronounced it "soledades"

same way we actually write "isn't it" and "wouldn't it" instead of "is not it" and "would not it" because noone actually says it that way
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2009 4:03:08
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
Mark is correct. It is actually not a misspelling. It is the correct spelling of a mispronunciation. Gypsies in Andalusia never pronounce hard consonants. They just drop them and say whatever is left. So yes, "Soleares" is simply a mispronunciation of "Soledades." Anyone can try it for themselves – just say "Soledades" and leave off the two "Ds".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2009 7:23:44
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to Ramon Amira) 
quote:

So yes, "Soleares" is simply a mispronunciation of "Soledades."

That's how I hear it too. It's not just the gitanos, though.

It may also sound like "sol-ee-ahh-ray" in some parts, as they drop the "s" as well. As in "buenas tardes" - shortened to the universal greeting of "buena"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2009 8:03:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
about solea....would make sense but going back to the old labeling of records issue, in practice you will see a mix of cantes in a performance called "solea" and in the baile too of course.

about phonetic spelling....um, that is still a miss spelling. If wee all wayees spehllld things fuh net tickly wee wuud never miss spehll ehneee thing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 6:09:37
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to Ricardo) 
You missed a few e's to accentuate the eeeeeeeeeehnee thing

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 7:40:51
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

miss spelling


i just can't resist this anymore, "miss spelling" is a mis-spelling!!

about phonetic spelling, there's no problem with "can't" in the above, or "there's" in this sentence, they aren't (whoops, there's another one!) mis-spellings, they are correct spellings of phonetic "there is", "can not", "are not" etc. and "isn't" and even "ain't" are other examples, same way as everyone knows that soleares and solea are dialect spellings of soledades and soledad..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 8:03:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

i just can't resist this anymore, "miss spelling" is a mis-spelling!!


oh, you didn't know that is the flamenco gypsy way to spell it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 8:56:41
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
To be very precise about it "mis-spelling" is a misspelling. There's no hyphen. Misspelling is spelled misspelling.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 11:28:58
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to Ramon Amira) 
How about a girl called Miss Spelling?

I once met a guy called Mr. Careless (honestly!)

I said "Geez!...You must have had quite a bit of stick on that?"

He just waved his hand and said, "Aw..don't mention it...I've heard 'em all..."

Cool guy actually...I think he revelled in it...

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 11:45:33
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

How about a girl called Miss Spelling?


And a first name of "Mississippi"

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 11:48:56
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

the flamenco gypsy way to spell it


don't they pronounce it "mi' 'pelling"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 11:53:36
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to Ramon Amira) 
quote:

To be very precise about it "mis-spelling" is a misspelling. There's no hyphen. Misspelling is spelled misspelling.


touché
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 11:55:48
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
 

[Deleted] 
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 5 2009 12:14:01
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 12:11:59
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Flamenco guitars at ten paces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 12:14:38
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
Damn pedants! LOL!!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 13:24:52
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
Who you callin' a peasant?!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 19:28:13
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
Wasn't seguidilla more gypsy style and the other seguiriya-spellings more related to the saeta's?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2009 19:35:07
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: seguirilla? (in reply to kozz) 
I'm intrigued by some of the lookalike "real photo" avatars here.

Mark looks like Bono
Doit looks like the young Bob Dylan
Kozz looks like Joe Brown (from Joe Brown and the Bruvvers)
Escribano makes me think of that big tall guy from "Madness"



cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2009 3:11:05
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