Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review & Videos

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Carlos

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 3 2010

Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review & V...

I have just returned from my Madrid guitar buying trip and would like to share some of my experience and thoughts for anyone looking to do the same thing in the future. First, this trip was more emotional and spontaneous than well planned and scientific. I lurked on this site for as much info as possible, and concluded that I had to play an instrument with my own hands before I would buy. I was lucky because I have a friend in Madrid, Gabriel Estirado Moor, who is playing flamenco professionally. He helped guide me through the process of trying different instruments and is featured in the videos. We judged each guitar on sound, playability and price. I apologize for the quality of the clips and the consistency of the sound samples. A couple of things became apparent very quickly. 1) Each luthier has maybe one or two examples of a particular model. It may be a good example or it may not. Thats why you have to play them. 2) Not every luthier makes all of their guitars. It has been discussed in the forum about labeling. That isn't a criticism of the sound, but something to be aware of. In the end I ended up buying the Borja Blanca for 2,000 e. All of the guitars had their own positive characteristics and could have bought any of them. We really liked the Romero Blanca and included a clip of David Jimenez playing the guitar. He walked in off the street while I was in the shop and just started playing. Great guitarist and a great guitar. It was my second choice. Hope this helps and thanks to the members for their help and guidance along the way. The experience for me was unforgettable. Carlos

Videos found here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/FlamencoCoba?feature=mhum

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2010 13:34:52

frhout

Posts: 453
Joined: Apr. 28 2005
From: France

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to Carlos)

Do you mean José Romero or Rafael Romero?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2010 18:01:35

Tomrocker

Posts: 404
Joined: Apr. 18 2010
From: Italy

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to Carlos)

Wow!! videos are great man. I'm just not comfortable with the prices though

Sometimes it's really frustrating how expensive a good wood could reach, but compared my my level i can say that i have still at least three years to change from Alhambra 1C to something higher

Absolutely fantastic, trying to play before you buy i mean.. and being a beginner, these chords you tried are really cool. Thanks for sharing the experience mate

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Don't give up...
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2010 20:27:13

Carlos

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 3 2010

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to Carlos)

Jose Romero

Espoz y Mina, 30

Phone: +34 91 521 42 18

I can say that Romero was making the guitars himself. I was impressed with him. I think the advantage of working with luthiers like him, is the craftmanship, time and passion they put into setting the guitar up correctly. I would not hesitate to order a guitar from him. Most luthiers will discount from the stated retail price. Maybe not Conde and Ramirez, but most others. You just have to ask. I was honest and told them that I was I was looking at several guitars and most were willing to negotiate.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2010 21:41:40

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to Carlos)

Thanks, that was interesting. Somehow I found the 2000 euro boraj blanca really sweet

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2010 16:25:01

duendesoul

Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 10 2007

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to Carlos)

thanks for posting these videos - I think the moral of the story is that $10,000 guitar does not necessarily play or sound better than $5000.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 12:35:14

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to duendesoul)

quote:

ORIGINAL: duendesoul

thanks for posting these videos - I think the moral of the story is that $10,000 guitar does not necessarily play or sound better than $5000.

even a $5000 guitar doesn't necessarily play or sound better than a $2500 guitar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 12:36:28

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to Arash)

Agreed Arash...

I played a few guitars in Sevilla last summer. A Felipe Conde Negra sounded sooooo dull compared to others worth half the price... although it played like butter.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 13:49:32

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to Carlos)

Great post

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 1:26:17

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to Carlos)

Hi Carlos,

Thanx for sharing your experiences with us. I was wondering if you could share some more details. For example which Conde Hermanos shop did you go to? One of their locations is a huge factory, right? Any differences between Gravina and Felipe? Which luthiers were more welcoming (spoke english etc)? Could you bargain with them (considering Spain's current economic condition) or were they firm with their prices? Can you actually buy a guitar on the spot or did you have to order (what is the waiting time)? How easy is it to avoid paying the VAT? (Do you have to pay it at first and get reimbursed later?) Are the lutheries close to each other ( same neighborhood) and easily accessible? Did you regret restricting yourself in Madrid? Did you go to a guitar shop (ec casa luthier) and compare the guitars from the 3rd party shop to the luthier's shop? Do you think that the luthiers won't sell their guitars to the tacky yankee tourists or on the contrary an American consumer is more likely to put down money and buy an expensive guitar so he gets better treatment? The same question can be posed for an advanced player compared to an amateur/beginner that has the doh to spend. Hope I am not too tiring but I am tempted to do the same trip like you but do it would be great to know what to do and what to avoid. According to my (I admit limited) experience:
1. It is amazingly hard to find stores in the US that sell Spanish guitars and especially new ones.
2. There are a lot of bad Condes out there but nothing compares to a good Conde. Especially for someone like me that dislikes jazzy sounding guitars, or as people call them versatile guitars. :) A good Conde is loud, clear and has that gypsy punch of a sound that modern luthiers (and behind them artists) do not seem to be interested at anymore.
3. I believe that as soon as you hit the $4000 mark you have reached a new plateau in quality. So yeah even a 200$ may sound as good as a $3k guitar but from my experience from US shops, I think that when guitars starts to cost $4K you can certainly feel the difference.
4. There are a lot of great American guitar makers. I did not expect that because I believe the markets in the US are driven by greater profit margins and I would expect them to use cheaper materials etc but apparently many American guitar makers feel very passionately about their craft. I have played Augoustino LoPrinzis that sound amazing and are relatively cheap. I can only imagine that Lesters and Monrads (and many others) are even better. This poses the question, is it worth paying for a ticket to Spain or should you put that money into the guitar from a local maker. Hard to answer. I think going to Spain should be more of a pilgrimage and the trip can and should offer a lot more than just the guitar itself. So spending that money should go to the experience of meeting Spain, visiting friends there, drinking Sangria with them etc. But if someone does a 24 hour trip just to buy a guitar and leaves, well, it may not be the wisest choice. Specially considering how expensive the Euro is.

Thanx again
D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2010 18:01:49

Carlos

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 3 2010

RE: Madrid Guitar Buying Trip Review... (in reply to elgreco)

D,

I went to the Felipe V location and it was closed. Apparently the brothers split up and opened two shops a block from each other. I walked around the block and found one of them downstairs from street level. Not sure which one. It was small.

All the luthiers were friendly, but definitely try to get a local fluent in Spanish to help you. You can get by, but negotiating is challenging since very few speak English. Everyone was willing to negotiate, but I made a mistake by not bringing enough cash. I thought I could get by with my credit card, but if you want to get a lower price and not pay the Vat, then bring cash. If you pay by card at a place like Conde or Ramirez, they will charge you Vat. You will need to get in the Vat refund line at the airport and get your refund. I would get their at least an hour or two earlier, because that Vat line was really long.

I didn't go to any re-sellers. Finding the right guitar for you is hit or miss. They don't have too many flamenco guitars available, mostly classical. Be prepared to go home empty handed. I was prepared to buy the best instrument for me regardless of size, or material. It was more about the experience. In the end I am very happy with my purchase.

If I had more time, I wish I could have gone down to Cordoba or Seville, but 5 days is not a lot of time. I stayed in the Plaza Santa Anna area and most luthiers were in walking distance. The Ramirez main shop was a short metro ride away.

Hope this helps, I would do it again tomorrow.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2010 0:52:36