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What palo is this (from El Amor Brujo)?   You are logged in as Guest
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a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

What palo is this (from El Amor Brujo)? 
This is the laundry scene from Carlos Saura's "El Amor Brujo".

I think it feels like a zapateado, but there is some disagreement within our group. Anybody?



Tony

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2009 6:06:12
 
Andy Culpepper

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Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to a_arnold) 
It sounds like a Villancico (Flamenco christmas song).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2009 7:28:22
 
Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to a_arnold) 
Tanguillos?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2009 7:47:43
 
edguerin

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Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to a_arnold) 
quote:

Tanguillos?


I think you're right.

But:
quote:

It sounds like a Villancico

My "Enciclopedia de los Estilos Flamencos de la A a la Z" states:
Villancicos are not characterized by any particular melody or rhythm but rather by "putting" popular Villancico-letras (text) to the "adequate" flamenco stile, be it tangos, tanguillos or bulerias, any palo that can be adapted ...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2009 9:26:46
 
Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to edguerin) 
quote:

quote:

Tanguillos?


I think you're right.


The accompaniment pattern 1 2 3 4 5 - , 1 2 3 4 5 -
(or: 1 + 2 + 3 , 1 + 2 + 3 , ...actually both at the same time) is typical of 'modern' tanguillos.

And yes, a villancico could sound like that, but not with those words!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2009 10:25:23
 
Andy Culpepper

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From: NY, USA

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to Estevan) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan


And yes, a villancico could sound like that, but not with those words!


Quite true...my first thought was actually tanguillos when I heard the rhythm but the melody reminded me so much of this:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2009 10:32:40
 
Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
Yes it's one of those generic / archetypal / transferable / adaptable melodies. I thought it sounded familiar too, and it took some time to realize that it reminded me of (no, really...) - same melody (at 1:17-1:33) different rhythm.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2009 12:21:15
 
bursche

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From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to Estevan) 
This can definitely be played as a Tanguillo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2009 12:46:20
 
a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
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RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to bursche) 
Thanks for responding, you guys.

There IS a villancico in el amor brujo, but I don't think his one is it.

I know that zapateado is in the Tanguillos rhythm family, and my old (puro) teacher taught me a zapateado, but I never learned Tanguillos, so it would probably be easy for me to confuse the two.

Can anyone recommend a youtube of tanguillos that is really typical or representative? Or maybe explain the difference?

Tony

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2009 5:38:42
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to a_arnold) 
quote:

my old (puro) teacher taught me a zapateado, but I never learned Tanguillos, so it would probably be easy for me to confuse the two.

Can anyone ....... explain the difference?


great question, i'd like some info on that too!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2009 11:01:29
 
XXX

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RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to mark indigo) 
I think Zapateado is, or evolved from, the footwork of Tanguillos...
like Escobilla in Alegria.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2009 11:50:49
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to a_arnold) 

Tanguillos is a Tango from Cadiz, which used to be sung by the Carnaval choirs. The term "tanguillos" evolved around 1944 to differenciate it from the Tangos flamencos.
Rhythmically it's a superposition of 6x8, 3x4 and 2x4 (Paco's "Casilda" is a good example of modern tanguillos, that have become extremely popular).

The Zapateado, originally an old Spanish dance from the 16th century, later became any passage within a danced palo in which footwork was used (i.e. it wasn't restricted to any one palo).

Nowadays the Zapateado has become a form of it's own: never sung, it's a mix of the melodic structure of Alegrias and the rhythm of tanguillos.

Hope this helps

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2009 9:12:30
 
Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to a_arnold) 
Hmmm.... doesn't sound like a zapateado to me! Doesn't sound like a tanguillos either but then I don't have a great feel yet for what a tanguillos sounds like :P No, say, Grand Unified Theory of Tanguilos But I guess a lot of people here have that issue.

So can people who do know this as tanguillos recognize this song as one?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2009 13:43:25
 
Andy Culpepper

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Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to a_arnold) 
No one ever said the composer for this film was necessarily working within strict Flamenco palos. This might not be any of the above, just an Andalusian folk melody put to a 3/4 time with new words. In a lot of Saura's movies I've heard stuff that didn't really sound like Flamenco, maybe more Spanish classical or folk type stuff.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2009 13:59:13
 
Andy Culpepper

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From: NY, USA

RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to a_arnold) 
Tanguillos is basically a fast Tientos in a major key, Zapateado is something totally different.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2009 14:01:21
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2009 16:17:48
 
XXX

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RE: What palo is this (from El Amor ... (in reply to edguerin) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

The Zapateado, originally an old Spanish dance from the 16th century, later became any passage within a danced palo in which footwork was used (i.e. it wasn't restricted to any one palo).

Nowadays the Zapateado has become a form of it's own: never sung, it's a mix of the melodic structure of Alegrias and the rhythm of tanguillos.

Hope this helps


I thought Zapateado were two things: 1. the palo 2. any fast footwork section (not restricted to a palo). As a palo it comes from the footwork of Tanguillos, and as you say shares the same compas. The melodic structure can also be an interpreted differently nowadays, so i wouldnt use that in a definition. I didnt made up the Zapateado-Tanguillos connection, im sure i ve read about Tanguillos and Zapateado on this forum or a webpage. The search function would be worth GOLD if it would work

edit: but the google search works!
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=87589&tmode=1&smode=1&p=1

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2009 2:10:21
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