Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
Giant Steps
HI all,
I want to pose a question to all of you, whether you are a beginner, intermediate, advanced player or anywhere in between.
The question is this:
What are things instructors, friends or you yourself have discovered in learning flamenco guitar which have helped you advance the most?
I am guessing it could be as simple as;
1) a few exercises (which I strongly encourage you to share) that teacfh the hands something valuable,
2) it could be transposing something from one key to another (taking a falseta or entire song),
3) it could be ways to practice rasgueado or another technique,
4) it could be creating a falseta by taking an improvised melody and adding chords at certain points,
5) it could be finding a rhythmic sequence on a cd and looping it and playing over/against it,
6) it could be an alzapua falseta, but varying certain aspects of it, etc.,
7) it could be taking your favorite verse from a cd or other recording and learning to play the melody inside of chords, and emphasizing the right notes,
8) it could be learning where and how to change keys for fresh sounding harmonic change,
Really, just anything you found was really valuable, even if you specify a book that has the instructions in it at a certain, that is helpful.
I have a few ideas to share too, but rather than pose them all now, I'd rather hear directly from you what experience has taught you.
More specific responses, with examples and details are a lot more valuable than one liners.
What are things instructors, friends or you yourself have discovered in learning flamenco guitar which have helped you advance the most?
Antony, It sounds like you are in a bit of a rut ATM, and wondering how to move on.
I really don't think the options you put can really satisfy that IMO. It's a great buzz and enthusiasm injection to be face to face with a really good player, but I think you underestimate the power of just listening. Not listening in a casual "entertainment" sort of way, but really analysing what the guitarist is doing. I don't think that books or tabs etc can beat that.
I'm not a "guitarist" like others on the Forum, but I've struggled with the same issues.
cheers,
Ron
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
Not listening in a casual "entertainment" sort of way, but really analysing what the guitarist is doing. I don't think that books or tabs etc can beat that.
What Ron says is right, but imo KNOWDLEDGE is the key to that. you can listen to picado and alzapua all day, but unless you know exactly HOW these sounds are being generated, its not much help. Thats where tuition and study comes in. same with compas: I had listened to "El Tempul" a thousand times (before I knew anything about bulerias compas) and I STILL couldn't tell WHAT made it a Bulerias. I guess it depends how sensitive your ears are and how good you are at filtering information from what you hear. IMO Ron has a very developed aural sense... and I'm not sure if that's something that can be learned or not.
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
For me the biggest anvance came from learning to play in time whilst leaving out most of the actual notes. Ie reducing music to its essence and putting the flesh on systematically and in varyning orders. As well as being more effective for learning pieces it also gives one a more 'general' technique making it easier to adapt to new material.
It also puts one more in the driving seat artistically and less of a slave to the score.
5) it could be finding a rhythmic sequence on a cd and looping it and playing over/against it,
Back to the topic... here's one Deniz taught me:
When you're trying to familiarize yourself with a particular palo, make a compilation CD of JUST that palo. for example, a CD of nothing but Buleria by various artists. If you've got an Ipod, make a "playlist" for each palo, then you can just switch it on, and listen to EVERY single bulerias you've got in your collection, or every single Alegrias.
As I said, you'll still need to do your theory homework. But you'd be surprised how quickly you learn to recognise some of the traits of various palos.
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
Mmm, I (and many others) have at least something to learn from Deniz, judging by some of his audio uploads recently. I mean, the guy is a better player than I am (not that thats difficult! )
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
The question arose because I have begun to teach, and I'd like to share things you all have learned with my student(s). I want to give them the best, most complete instruction I can, and I think taking account of what you all think paid off well is a really important contribution to becoming the best teacher I can be.
So far, a lot of the suggestions are things I already do to varying degrees, and I think the suggestions are very good, stripping down a falseta to its bare bones is a great idea, so is expanding on simpler ones, so is compiling dozens of recordings of certain palos.
I just figured I would see what other parts of the "puzzle" I may not have encountered yet but that some of you may have had insight into.
I'm a rank beginner and my teacher emphasizes COMPAS and proper technique above all else with a combination of no tempo, slow motion, and metronome-based practice. Learning to make even a simple chord change cleanly in compas without undo tension is difficult for many first-timers with no previous musical experience.
So, for example, I'm learning some arpeggios, and play in quarters, eights and then sixteenths with a metronome, and playing falsetas while counting out loud and tapping my foot, and then cueing it with a metronome. Slowing down like this forces you to really focus on timing and helps internalize the compas in your body.
Though all of these things are probably second-nature to most of you, for beginners, it's especially plant the seeds for good compas early on, cuz without it - hey, no dice na'!!!
What are things instructors, friends or you yourself have discovered in learning flamenco guitar which have helped you advance the most?
1. Firstly, for me, was interacting with percussionists in college really helped my rhythm. Indirectly that really helped my flamenco later. Keeping a beat while synchopation is going on, holding on to the tempo, understanding rudimentary problems that cause most folks to rush or drag time, etc. 2. Making transcriptions of flamenco guitar was more educational for me than reading transcriptions of others. I used my fathers real to real recorder and slowed down stuff to half speed. Sure I made mistakes, and had wrong "grips" or typical positions and fingerings, but all that got filled in later with good video footage. Footage like Rito y Geografia... 3. Playing for dancers that sing letras taught me the structure of flamenco songs. 4. First going to Spain and participating in a juerga with people from Jerez, you realize what the feeling of bulerias is really supposed to be. And it was different, even the palmas, than what most foreignors that I knew, were percieving it as. I don't mean mathematically, I mean the subtle groove, the foot, the accents in the palmas, the guitar, the singing, etc. Rhythm again, but very specific things about it. 5. Arpegios, the importance, the proper way of digging in etc, seemed to help my technique overall. That was from Nuñez. 6. Working with a GOOD singer, gitano, I realized that you don't need to study to know all the forms and variations of the cante to accompany well. A good singer, that knows what it is about, the compas, and how to improvise even, can LEAD the guitarist, take him by the hand and carry him through any cante. Where as singers not so good really rely on the guitarist for support. Anyway, it is easier to learn accompaniment well with a good singer. And I realized the beauty of the "system" how and why the guitarist "follows" the singer, can take cues for tempo and accent, etc... A good singer does not want a guitarist that "knows all the cantes", but rather one that knows how to LISTEN.
For me it would be to make sure all the basics are in place, and that they stay in place. for example, i started learning flamenco on my own, and my positioning was all wrong from the way i held the guitar to left and right hand position. then i got a teacher who pointed these things out. but then i stopped having lessons and forgot about positioning etc and the old bad habits returned. i think its important to make sure all your students are doing these things right above all else and that it is ingrained in them so when they practice away from you they are practicing in the right way.
and i would definitely agree with making a playlist or minidisc compilation for each palos, to familiarise yourself with each. i think this is a good way to indirectly improve your playing, as when learning a new palos it can be quite foreign and if you can really familiarise yourself with the typical structures of a palos that is one less thing to think about during the actual playing and it can only make learning easier.
however i'm probably more in need of this advice than qualified to give it. i've been playing for two years but still see myself as very much a beginner - my practice technique is completely undisciplined flitting from one instruction book to another from palos to palos with very rare 'eureka' moments. i wish i knew the best way to make real, solid progress.
I haven't had individual tuition with Tomas, but have had some group lessons with him which were great.
My first teacher was Juan Ramirez but then I started to see Ramon Ruiz (no reflection on Juan it was just more convenient). Both taught me about positioning, but the problem is when i go for long periods without any guidance (like now, not having had any lessons since about November) I just get sloppy and play in what feels like the easiest position, as opposed to the correct position. Which is silly because the correct position is actually easier in the long run.
This was really brought home to me on Saturday - I visited the spanish guitar studio on duke street at the weekend and ended up having an impromptu bulerias lesson with the man who i think owns it!! Which was truly fantastic and I was so grateful for the experience, but after I played him my little solea that i have been playing for ever the first thing he said was basically that my left and right hand were all wrong. So I played in the correct position and although it wasnt as easy I remembered straight away and it immediately felt and looked more flamenco. And I now have a great bulerias falseta to practice too!
Anyway sorry for that overly long answer to a very simple question, I'm rambling a bit as I'm tired!
Aha, yes. The Spanish Guitar Centre is where I go for my lessons. Next time you're there see if Steve Homes is about. if you're lucky he might play something for you...
Jb
PS: I know what you mean about the bad habits creeping back in when you go for long periods without lessons, as I can't afford them as often as I'd like.
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
I used to wonder those things just like you Paleto, but there is only one thing that you need to know:
In order to succeed in becoming a flamenco guitarist you must PRACTICE, PRACTICE and more PRACTICE. No matter what your questions might be, that's what you must do.
First and foremost let me say thanks for taking the time to think about this.
I was really hoping for specifics, not vague statements. Practice, practice, practice is useless unless what is being practiced is useful. We have had some discussion of technique studies versus learning technique through repertoire for example, but in order for the discussion to be useful, we have to specify how and what to practice (and also what has been found to be a waste of time).
As an example, I practice rasgueados as follows:
1) Marote's rasgueado - p, m, p (up, down, down) - in triplets, quadruplets and sextuplets (the beat falling on the first stroke) in solea and alegrias, beats 1 - 9 are accented, ending with a remate on 10, 11, 12. I sometimes start with m going down, p down, then p up. Then I'll start with p down, p up and then m down. I try to build the volume slowly, so 7, 8 and 9 are the loudest.
2) I take other rasgueado patterns and do the same, p, a, i, or El Nani's rasgueado p, a, i, p (p up, a, down, i down, p down) and others.
3) Then I try to switch (mid stream) from one rasgueado to another all in compas without any seam between them, this doing triplets, quadruplets and sextuplets.
This is the kind of useful practice/teaching information I was hoping to encourage everyone to share.
Another example, I take arpeggios (of many kinds see Giuliani's 120 right hand studies for example, or those in Carlos Barbosa-Limas book below) and play them in compas, ending in remate, just to know where they are at any moment in common flamenco keys.CBL Arpeggios - Mel Bay
I do have to change the arpeggios a little to fit in compas, but they really train both the right hand and the left really well, at the same time, I learn to improvise (or the basis for it) all in compas. I do this all over the neck, say up to 13th fret. This is a more advanced way of learning these things, but they have been very fruitful for improvising.
I suppose it takes more time to contribute something of substance but it's worth it, I think.
I have the Encuentro DVD, does he explain it well in there?
Well, he touches on it. Just doing the basic arps pima, the pami, then pimami. But the important thing is the way he holds the hand, rests the thumb, digs in and gets that ripping sound. That made a big impression on me when I first took his class and saw him do it in person. I wish he had more of that in his video. Also he has like half a dozen bulerias that are just arpegios, so pretty but have that flamenco edge to it and a special rhythmic drive. None of the those special bulerias are in Encuentro video. Well, just a bit from the Rondena bulerias in the Pulgar section. The focus is not arps so you might not apreciate the coolness of his arpegio patterns at first.
Most of Nuñez techniques comes from things I realized later are from PDL's early days. Take a look at this for example, and notice the rhythmic control, the fluidity, the way he digs into the string and drives the rhythm with the arpegios:
Sorry Shroomy if I seemed annoyed. I gave some specific examples to try to make it clearer what I was after.
My post may not have been clear, but what I am asking each person to contribute is one of those special moments when you're practicing or playing and you discover that you just made a big improvement in your playing. what was it that led to that improvement?
The reason is to take those responses into consideration as I begin to teach, so that what I share with a student is something that another person found especially valuable.
I know that I made some big improvements in a number of areas once I began to pay a lot of attention to how much left hand pressure I was using. Locking down on the fretboard made the next chord or position very difficult. I started doing some simple exercises in an out of print book called "The Guitarists Hands" by John Duarte and Luis Zea. Some simple, non musical exercises helped me a lot.
I tried to discourage one line responses to get others to remember one of those moments and share what led to them realizing they had jumped a hurdle, or broke into a new phase of playing, or if they realized, by looking back, that something particular they learned or did really gave them a significant improvement.
Printable Version
) They are priceless. 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread