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I Dreamt I Slept in Marble Halls...Sin Picado (Por Favor)!!
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 I Dreamt I Slept in Marble Halls...S...
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Hi Amigos,
I listened with interest and "aficion" to Simon's broadcast the other night.
One was a Vincente Amigo CD.
Great playing absolutely!
But I've got to admit that it became pretty boring after the first couple of numbers.
Yeah...jump on me...tell me I know nothing about Flamenco etc etc.
When I first heard Paco (de Lucia) do his brilliant picado and show his excellent precision and musicianship in " Fantasia Flamenca" it was overwhelming.
Fast picado was done pretty sparingly, considering he could have done a whole Album full of it!
What is it about these "picado players" that thinks that the fastest and strongest picado is somehow gonna get to our souls and declare them the best Flamenco musicians who have ever lived? So decided to make a whole Album of it?
In case we haven't quite got the fact that they can play fast picado anyway?
Duhh! (Yeah..we got it Man...really cool....any place open for a Pizza right now?)
It's all "formulaic" to my ear anyway. Really!
..... ie you give 4 or 6 beats fast picado of any nonsense you can come up with on the 10th beat of Bulerias and then lauch into an indulgence of chords arthymically sounded and then suddenly, before the end, do a nice Dm, C, B flat, and a dramatic A (so the audience can keep up with ya!).
(So everybody knows it was Bulerias you were playing)
Wawooyeee, MegaCool!
Jim Opfer lent(  ) me an Album of Vincente's.
I had bought his earlier Album "Corazon al Aire" and somehow found it a bit "arrogant".
So I wrote him off as yet another contender to the Throne.
But his "De Amancer" Album with Jose Merce is absolutely lovely!
Maybe it takes a young guitarist to be taken under the wing of an older Flamenco, such as Merce to realize that "makin' a million" is not what it's about.
I dunno, 'cos I know that Jose, and Moraito certainly wouldn't mind making a million!
HaHa!
Guess it's just straddlin' the fences.
I really don't see why fingers have got to fly so much, when there are really good musicians like Diego Amaya who can set a whole atmosphere with a few simple riffs.
Absolutely simple to hear, not so simple to play, let me tell you!! 
I mean, I find Flamenco pretty difficult, but I think the things that get through to me are sometimes very plain.
(Guess it's like Keith Richards and Stevie Vie....you tell me which one is the best!!)
ie I think that sometimes some folk can say to me in a couple of words, that others take ages to tell me about.
((Unlike this post LOL!)
"It's the guitar....it just, like, ...weeps!" ...... LOL!
cheers
Ron
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Date Dec. 29 2003 22:14:08
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Phil
Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain
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RE: I Dreamt I Slept in Marble Halls... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Ron,
IMHO, Niño de Pura has taken picado to it's ultimate extreme. I've never before seen anyone play such fast, clean runs for such an extended amount of time. It does gets a bit boring after a while, but I must confess that I was glued to the TV when I saw him playing. The next day I saw the guitarist Juan Moneo (Manuel Moneo's son) when I went for a lesson and he asked me if I saw Niño de Pura on TV the previous night and, of course, he commented on his mind-boggling picado. So, my point is that most guitarists, even working professionals, are impressed when they see someone with that kind of skill. Whether we admit it or not, most of us would like to have the skill to pull off a superfast, clean picado. It's certainly a valuable technique to have in your sack (as my teacher says), ready to pull out when you need it, but it does get overused. I agree with you that too much of it it gets old fast. However, things may be changing. I recently read an interview with Paco de Lucia where he mentions that there's little or no picado on his new CD (the one that's to be released in a couple of weeks). Maybe he'll start a whole new trend.
Phil
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Date Dec. 29 2003 23:03:13
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: I Dreamt I Slept in Marble Halls... (in reply to Ron.M)
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I have Nino de Pura's album. It's quite commercial, and of course about half picado. Probably you guys think I like it! Well, I want to learn a couple of the songs because they are commercial and there's a lot of picado. When you spend years developing this damn technique, believe me, you want to show it off. I'm working on Panaderos Flamencos, which is half picado, and when I'm finished with that I'll look for a couple more. I mean, it's a lot of work guys. But Nino de Pura's kind of a cheeseball... most of it I consider pop, although there is some flamenco on there too. But he is not as clean as Paco. Paco's picado is cleaner, sharper, faster.
One thing that I noticed when listening to Nino de Pura, is that he plays a lot of sextuplets, that's 6 notes to a beat. I used to think that the measure of speed was sixteenth notes---sixteenth notes at 100, at 150, whatever. Now I realize that the stuff that really sounds fast is sextuplets at a given tempo. If you're improvising at a given tempo, and you play sixteenth notes, it sounds quick but not fast. If you play sextuplets, it sounds quite fast. If you listen to Panaderos Flamencos, it's all sixteenths, until that ridiculously fast lick at the end, which sounds like sextuplets.
To me, this picado thing, using picado as an ornament to a chord, is an evocation of the way singers--well, very fancy singers-- travel from chord to chord. It's very flamenco.
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Date Dec. 30 2003 15:39:17
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Paleto
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
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RE: I Dreamt I Slept in Marble Halls... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Ron,
I was a little suprised at a couple things you mentioned, but I also agree in some places. First off, a lot of young players likely use picado because it sounds pretty radical. The problem is that some rely on it too much, and because they've solved a major technical problem get the idea they are now great guitarists. What's lacking in many cases is probably compositional abilities, which many begin to think about only after their first recording. Each guitarist records their first cd (album, whatever) with material they've had their whole prior life to develop. Remember, they are young and want to dazzle people. Then, if they have a recording contract, they have a year or two (sometimes more) to record again. Now comes the part where they have to begin to think about things more deeply - why am I doing this? Where do I go from here? How can I make myself different? These sorts of questions that come with maturity.
Each guitarist likely starts to meet other important artists and learns things more generally about musicicanship, which they then start thinking about.
Vicente Amigo's first cd was recorded when he was about 23 years old. I don't think he had formal music training, no composition training, probably minimal harmony (with Manolo Sanlucar) but lots of flamenco time (cante and probably some dance accompaniment). He clearly wanted to develop his own style and what you hear is like no other, at all. When I hear to Vicente, I know immediately who is playing. He's very lyrical, very distinct, and has made some of my favorite music, despite his limitations.
Whether you like it or not is not so important, if you don't that's ok. But just remember that you may not hear a lot of what he's doing, what he's after. When I first hear a guitarist or even after listening many times and don't like them, instead of trashing them, I think, perhaps he's after something something I don't recognize. For me, many of the most traditional flamenco guitarists leave lots to be desired. They typically had no formal music training, their chord progressions are repetitive and musically are so simple that there's not much there to hear in that respect. However, many of those guys did things that are interesting rhythmically and also their abilities as accompanists are second to none. If analized musically, they amount to little, but how they play means everything. It's similar with Vicente, the emphasis is more on how he plays something, rather than on what is played. Don't get me wrong, what he plays in some moments is very special, leaving a deep impression on those who recognize it.
Instead of outright playing A, G, F, E in the Andalusian cadence to give a grossly simplified model, Vicente has figured out some ways of implying it, with inverted chords or otherwise. Vicente has a wonderful sense melody, and has brought much to flamenco guitar in my opinion. I definitely wouldn't call Vicente a picado player, if you really listen, that's the least of what he's after. In his concerts for the last 7 or 8 years, he begins with the most gorgeous taranta material bar none IMO. He then weaves falsetas from two tarantas he's recorded, then the whole thing evolves into soleá. The end of the soleá you probably know well, it continuously builds in intensity through the novel chord progression (novel to flamenco anyway) and ends with some very cool rhythmic variations and alzapúa.
In many instances, there are some dark, sad, or emotional moments. But there are also joyous ones. There is one other emotion that is strongly present, but no one has mentioned it. I think there is a lot of love in there too, especially in the tarantas both from De mi corazón al aire as well as and even moreso in the one on Poeta (the one dedicated to Rafael Alberti). Vicente has a son, and I think that has provided some emotional experiences on which to create musically.
I have a friend in Córdoba who is sometimes invited to Vicente's house to just hang out. My friend said they would be re-releasing Poeta de esquinas blandas, a cd Vicente recorded with El Pele in 1990. I suggest that anyone interested watch for it and buy it if you don't have it. There is an awesome alegrías on it that will eliminate the conclusion that he puts too much "depressed emotion" into his pieces. Like most other flamenco guitarists, I suggest his lack of formal musical training would partially explain why he might "travel within a song very much without going anywhere". There are also the limitations within flamenco which could also account for that. Ask yourselves this - How far can you really go within flamenco? Where could Vicente have gone, that would have been better, or more interesting, yet still stayed within the confines of flamenco? Depending upon how advanced each of us gets, we could face that question ourselves...If you perform, you deal with it during practice every day.
About Niño de Pura, I saw him in Tijuana a little over a year ago. I agree with just about everyone, amazing technique, but not much depth. Hopefully he'll start to work on that aspect of playing music. Picados, or runs, are good now and then, even if a slighty long, but in and of themselves they aren't very musical. His cd is very commercial, but there are things to learn from it despite its shortcomings.
Another opinion....
Respectfully,
Anthony
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Date Jan. 3 2004 3:01:42
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Pedoviejo
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003
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RE: I Dreamt I Slept in Marble Halls... (in reply to Escribano)
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This is actually a follow-up to all the above. (Rather grandiose of me, I know, but that also is flamenco.) Lots of ideas flowing there.
On picados: One of you essentially said that “because they can” is the reason new players use picados. I agree. Everyone responds to the speed, the flying notes, like a joy ride. Monteverde did it, Paganinni did it, to name but a very few in the “classical” music world. Especially for young players, it’s like young men on motorcycles and in fast cars: It’s a thrill, and especially because they’re either too young to really know life-long debilitating injury or death, or do know of these things (e.g., war veterans) but haven’t absorbed or dealt with the experience yet.
Speed is also very relative: The less your ears are tuned to it – i.e., being able to hear all the notes, to hear the inflections, etc, which takes lots of careful listening – the faster it sounds. It’s a blur. I used to think Carlos Montoya was fast on picados, but that impression soon disappeared. When I was living in Madrid some 30 years ago, I thought Serranito was the fastest and cleanest guitarist I ever heard, he of the 3 finger picado. This last year I acquired the re-released CD of his 1971 LP, “Serranito: Virtuosismo Flamenco”. I hadn’t listened to my LP in many years, and I was surprised when I listened again to this recording because his picados weren’t nearly as fast or as clean as I remembered. Paco blows him away, hands down, using only 2 fingers. And Paco can play much cleaner as well – when he wants to, though he hasn’t really tried to play completely clean since his early twenties.
In any event, maturity brings change – IF there’s other things to go along with the ability for speed. Which brings me to PDL versus Vicente versus whoever: PDL could play the fastest picados of anyone ever when he was a teenager. But Paco had been completely and totally reared in a flamenco environment, and he had tremendous maturity for his age. He might do some picados in live performance as crowd pleasers, but he always knew their proper place: Everything in his technique is subordinated to the music, because he completely understands that technique is never an end in itself but only a means to an end. When Paco does a picado run, it’s always “right” for the piece. And Paco is another Mozart: A complete and total musical genius fortunate enough to have been born to a parent who understood music, appreciated the talent they had on their hands, and directed all of the child’s energies to that end. (How many Mozarts were born to the wrong parents and ended their lives sweeping floors?)
Paco’s genius displays itself on all levels: Absolute mastery of technique, unerring rhythmic sense, incredible innate sense of musical good taste, and tremendous creativity. Any one of those abilities would make someone be considered a “great” guitarist. It is the possession of all of them which separates Paco from all others.
Unless you musically “grew up” with Paco, it is difficult to appreciate this. Paco has so influenced everyone around him, has “shown the way” such that it has become “the norm,” that it is very hard to realize how much he has done – and how much you are hearing from other guitarists and in other quarters has actually come from Paco. One needs a musical retrospective, listening to recordings over a period of weeks in chronological order, to begin to re-create the progression and hear and understand how it came about. Only in that way can one hear and see what Paco did. It is to hear Paco’s progression from Niño Ricardo through Ramón Montoya to Sabicas, the tonal, melodic and compositional influences of Esteban Sanlucar, Mario Escudero…. Serranito was known to go into a rage if anyone mentioned Paco as the best guitarist back then. Manolo Sanlucar alone of Paco’s generation was able to both love and yet resist the Paco onslaught, keeping and nurturing a wonderful, highly individualistic sound that was “not Paco” and yet very flamenco. Yes, there were also many other fine players, but when one considered the whole spectrum – creativity as both a soloist and accompanist + making the audience want, need to shout Ole! - there was only Paco and Manolo.
Tomatito, as Carlos Sanchez, a friend of mine and professional from the late ‘40’s through ‘60’s, once observed, Tomatito is a “Paquista”. Tomate has wonderful creativity, technique and good taste, but his drive, his rhythmic sense and so much else is pure Paco.
It should therefore come as no surprise that Vicente Amigo learned from both Manolo and Paco (what an enviable training!), and as a result, he has a unique sound. As Gerardo Nuñez once said when complimented on his incredible technique (and I paraphrase): “Yes, but the real trick is to have your own sound. THAT’s the hard part.” Moraito has his own sound as well, but nothing near the dynamic range of melodies, technique, etc. to be considered a great soloist.
But all that being said, I find it absurd to call Vicente “the next PDL.” I personally love Vicente’s stylings. He’s an incredible guitarist and creator, particularly in his ability to wring so much from such apparent simplicity and have it “say something.” However, excuse me, but someone who seriously calls Vicente Paco’s successor* has much to learn. Vicente’s toque is evolutionary. Paco’s was revolutionary.
(* Paco reportedly said just that – but it was in response to a question along the lines of, “who of the new guitarists would you consider your successor?” Paco was referring to refreshing creativity that nevertheless remains true to flamenco.)
Interesting those comments about Vicente’s “darkness” and “sadness.” If you hear the guy speak you soon realize that he has a very sharp wit. E.g.: “It’s Paco’s fault that I’m a guitarist.” But perhaps as with many people who have very keen senses of humor, there’s a deep, sensitive and romantic side as well, perhaps what the humor is there to protect and disguise. Both come through in Vicente’s playing.
As to the “lack of classical training” and yet the possession of a classical knowledge of music: I quote from the introduction to a classic work on composition, “Harmony,” by Walter Piston:
“There are those who consider that studies in harmony, counterpoint, and fugue are the exclusive province of the intended composer. But if we reflect that theory must follow practice, rarely preceding it except by chance, we must realize that musical theory is not a set of directions for composing music. It is rather the collected and systematized deductions gathered by observing the practice of composers over a long time, and it attempts to set forth what is or has been their common practice. It tells not how music will be written in the future, but how music has been written in the past.”
In other words, it is the study of the products of musical genius, of that which has been deduced as the more or less common practices of those of talent – which in turn enables one to appreciate new genius: Those who know the rules, either by instinct or study, yet apply them in new and surprising ways, or even break them with pleasing results. But the only way to fully appreciate that is to have a sufficient knowledge base with which to compare. It would be like someone with no prior experience with wine being poured a glass of an outstanding vintage from an outstanding producer: It’s hit or miss whether they would even know it was good, but a virtual certainty they wouldn’t know how good. To continue the analogy, genius in a wine maker could produce a White Zinfandel or Nasty Spumante that would completely surprise and please the most knowledgeable connoisseur. As has been said many times (Hemmingway in “Death in the Afternoon” for one), in any art “knowledge enhances enjoyment.” But it also raises the bar: The more you know about an art, the more you look for something new to intrigue you – and the harder it is to find. When you’ve heard years of flamenco, you still crave more, but you also want to be surprised. The dancer’s turn that you expected just at that spot, but suddenly ended in a completely unexpected way; the falseta you’ve heard hundreds of times, you nodding your head knowingly, then suddenly and pleasingly surprised when it went in an unexpected direction. That’s what many of the new players try to do. Some do it successfully – and usually with subtlety. Many others try to do it with “weird” harmonies, new tunings, but the result may be less than pleasing and the guitarist has to tell us what the hell the palo was he just played and we’re ignorant outsiders for not knowing without being told.
So as I see it, three things are required of any artist to produce art of consequence: Talent, exposure and dedication. In other words, born ability, luck in being reared in the appropriate environment, and sufficient desire to practice, practice, practice. What makes Paco so rare and unique is that he has all three in abundance. For those of us in this forum, some might have the first, some the third, and some both the first and third - but in each case the misfortune of insufficient exposure (the reason why we’re on the Net in English).
I’m also surprised at all the talk on McLaughlin. For shear speed, Al DiMeola has them all down, and incredibly clean too. McLaughlin was fast, but not as fast nor near as clean. But in return he had a certain “bluesy” touch that said something, whereas DiMeola was all technique. Cold as ice in whatever he did. But other than those shows I don’t know McLaughlin. I can say that when Carlos Sanchez and I were talking to Paco backstage (about 20 years ago) McLaughlin came over with a smile and offered us each a Heinie. Very nice and affable. You might also be interested to know that Carlos chided Paco for playing as part of a speed-freak trio, and Paco’s response was, “But Carlos, I’m learning a ton of things!” (“Pero Carlos, ¡estoy aprendiendo un montón de cosas!”) Paco said years later that the flamenco guitar was mostly complete unto itself, but what it had lacked was harmonic dynamics. It was the music-theory based methodology of jazz that Paco was learning with those guys – and getting paid for it, and becoming known outside of the small world of aficionados as well. Not a bad trade.
And finally to Kate’s observation that great flamenco can happen without a guitarist: But of course! For much of flamenco’s history there were never enough knowledgeable guitarists. Guitar is only one expression of flamenco, sometimes indispensable, others not. Listen to those “a palo seco” versions of bulerías on albums such as Miguel Proveda or La Macanita, amongst many others. One of my epiphanies came after I had played professionally (i.e. got to tour and got paid for it too) for some time, when I had been living in Spain for a few months at that point. Until then all the dancers I had any experience of were always in costume when they were performing. Without the whole fig they were only “rehearsing.” But then I was at this party, and one of the hosts who appeared middle aged and was wearing a dark suit with no tie, wanted to dance. He wasn’t a professional, just Gypsy and aficionado. He didn’t have the dance-studio bearing or moves or footwork. Yet, it was the first time I ever saw bulerías danced they way it was supposed to be danced. No one had to tell me either. If you were there you would have known instantly as well. Nothing “studied” and nothing feigned, no pretenses and no tricks. Just pure, wonderful, joyful bulerías. Some with guitar. Some without.
See again the above statement from a master composer about music theory.
Pedohondo
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Date Jan. 5 2004 4:28:33
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: I Dreamt I Slept in Marble Halls... (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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Pedo,
nice post, I agree!
Yes, in music, theory is preceded by practice. What works becomes orthodoxy, what doesn't or what is unknown is not. They become rules becuase they work. Perhaps Vicente or Paco never studied in conservatory, but through listening and experimenting they figured out what works, what the Western, human mind responds to. One rule we know they break is--Moving in Parallel Octaves! Pedo, if you got through Walter Piston you're a greater man than I. I have a used copy on my bookshelf. Used a different text for music theory 101 years back, but... speaking of counterpoint, did you study it? I had a famous treatise on it, did all the exercises, just like Haydn and those guys. Was it Fuchs or something? What a horrible thing.
I have recently gotten the hang of picado and sure it's fun. I was at a gig last night and caught myself doing really obnoxious speed licks. Have to stop doing that!
I agree with the talent/exposure/dedication triumvirate. Which is why... which is why in the end I probably won't be doing flamenco, per se. The choice as I look at it is that I can try to play flamenco and end up a bad imitation of a Spanish guitarist, or I can play where my heart leads me and, hopefully, make my OWN good music. In a way Vicente inspires me because although his music has a flamenco flavor some of it is not really flamenco at all. Vicente's concept is close to mine, at least this is where I see myself going. But I need to learn as much about flamenco as possible, first. Foreigners who try to play flamenco professionally, just sound like those Spanish guys who try to play blues or rock to me. Or the Bay City Rollers or something.
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Date Jan. 5 2004 15:00:20
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Perhaps it is just the sound of his guitar. He seems to have a relatively present sound, if you know what I mean. In you face. 
