Pulgar technique concerns

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Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

Pulgar technique concerns

Guys, I would appreciate your thoughts on positioning the right hand for apoyando pulgar falsetas. Up to now I've been using a classical guitar technique for rest stroke lines, or in other words, playing off the outside edge of the thumb in the same position as a flamenco player would play thumb rest stroke if he were playing an argpeggio on the upper strings, for example.
I've been playing around with positioning using a mirror, making comparisons with other players, and a couple of things concern me.

Lets say for the sake of argument that a default hand position has the thumb rested on the sixth string, pointing towards the headstock of the guitar. General consensus seems to favour a definite change of position for thumb lines, with the wrist having a pronounced arch to bring the thumb into contact with the strings at a much more pronounced angle, and with the tip of the thumb pointing more towards the players body, if you see what I mean. This facilitates that 'hammering' wrist action that gives us that satisfying twangy flamenco sound, yes?

Ok, whilst playing pulgar-only material, swinging from the wrist, I am not too worried about that arch, as I'm only really rotating the forearm, but if I start playing other stuff (eg P-I-P-I with I playing on the top string) in that position, I can sense the strain that the bent wrist is putting on things. Bent wrists are not good for the tendons that more through the carpal tunnel. This is my first concern.

Secondly, it appears from watching other players that either they have unatural shaped thumbs, or they are locking the thumb's middle joint inwards towards the palm in order to point the tip of the thumb upwards to facilitate the stroke (if you see what I mean). If this is the case, this also concerns me as it would seem to add tension into an already 'unhealthy' position.

What are your thoughts on these two issues?

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2003 10:49:58

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Pulgar technique concerns (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Alzapua does put strain on the forearm and other tendons, this is normal, If you practice Alzapua for a few minutes your arm aches so much you cannot play anything else for a few mins, the more arched your thumb backwards I would have thought the better, but PDL has a more straight shaped thumb. The most important thing to remember with thumb work is to remember not to bend the thumb with the thumb knuckle. But dont worry about straining the tendons, thats what flamenco technique does, especially accompanying dancers. In fact Don Peron, excuse the spelling, caused permanent damage to his tendons by doing too much Alazapua rasgueado etc.
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2003 11:07:36

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Pulgar technique concerns (in reply to Jon Boyes)

I'm not sure if Billyboy is trying to help you or hurt you Jon!:) Don't change your technique for change's sake. I think you can get a satisfactory sound in your current position by relaxing the hand a little bit, pushing in from the forearm, using the wrist for the stroke instead of the thumb itself. A lot of flamencos counsel to never use the thumb, but only the wrist. And take it easy! There's no rush and alzapua is a pretty easy technique if you just give it some consistent work.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2003 14:23:42

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2003 15:42:35

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Pulgar technique concerns (in reply to Jon Boyes)

I was trying to say that you may be able to get good results without significant changes. There is no "right way" to play alzapua. Lots of good players use different form. However, what Andy describes is how I was taught in Sevilla by Tino van der Smaan at the Fundacion, quite a "student of technique" himself. What Andy says is as close to orthodoxy as you will get. Very important--COMPLETELY RELAXED! When you need to put on more volume you can stiffen up a little, but that should certainly not be your goal right now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2003 17:34:17

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Pulgar technique concerns (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Herrero says, after a while on one technique, move to another as a form of rest e.g. from picado to ras, pulgar to picado, ras to arpeggio etc. It's not tendons, dumb little threads that they are, it's the muscles and they will relax stretched in a different direction or opposite way. This is the key to massage.

Poor posture in any pursuit will take it's toll, but it takes years, so look out for the signs. On that note, I am copying Ron and practising in all sorts of strange positions. Still haven't figured it out in the bath. Lying on my back in bed is next. Think one can do something useful while making love?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2003 20:09:29

eslastra

Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA

RE: Hey Andy (in reply to Guest)

Andy,

Hadn't heard from you in a while. Was wondering if you received the SpB book? Speaking of alzapua, the Pepe Habichuela falseta on page 33 has a nice alza ending.

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Eddie Lastra

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2003 21:17:05

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Pulgar technique concerns (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Jon;

I have several films of flamenco guitarists dating back to the early 1930’s. It seems that Sabicas was the first to use Indice, Medio picado, while everyone else was using Pulgar picado.

It seems that there are two things being discussed in this thread, both related to pulgar technique. I was first trained in classical guitar and moved that technique to flamenco. While talking to Carlos Montoya, he discussed how he normally positioned the pulgar. Mariano Cordoba uses a similar technique. I use several techniques depending upon what I am doing.

Use the outside edge of the pulgar to strike the string. Hold your fist like you are going to make a “hitchhikers sign”. That is the pulgar is extended in a straight line over the strings and the other fingers are behind the pulgar. You should be able to place a pencil between your pulgar and Indice, which indicates you have a good position.

The wrist is barely bent towards the outside and in a straight line with the forearm. Relax. The pulgar can rest on the sixth string or on the top of the guitar against the sixth string. In the latter case as your picado (I,M) moves up towards the sixth string your pulgar moves away from the sixth string an equal amount. When the I,M picado assends you move the pulgar towards the sixth string.

Pulgar picado normally requires support. The Indice can be held against the first string with the Medio and Anular on the guitar top. As you move towards the first string with the pulgar you can move the other fingers a like distance if you wish.

There are many variations of how to use picado techniques. Trying to describe this with words is not an easy task. Also, you should have someone evaluate your technique. Some people believe there is only one way to do anything – their way. This is not true. Sabicas taught himself.

Evaluate what others do and the way you apply your technique. Go for the best sound and do not strain. If you feel pain you are doing something wrong!

As for Alzapua, I can play that technique for ½ hour and not get tired. It is all a matter of approach.

I am working on some material from Diego del Gastor. You will not believe the technique required!

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Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2003 3:52:36

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2003 16:47:26

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2003 16:49:14

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Pulgar technique concerns (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Hey all,

I appreciate the discussion very much and am glad someone started one specifically about pulgar and alzapúa.

I am confused and get lost in many of the descriptions about the"outside" of the thumb, and descriptions of positioning.

Is there some text from a good method book we all could read and then adopt a kind of common lanugage to make the discussion clearer? Maybe most of you are on the same page and its just me who is unaware of something many of know and use to describe this technique....

I have neglected practicing pulgar, except for small chunks in a couple "pieces" I have attempted and want to work on it more.

I'd also like to suggest that because of each persons unique physiology, it seems probable that positioning will be very much dependent upon things like: A) the relative length of fingers to the hand and B) a person's arm length as well as C) their height and D) how limber their wrist and fingers are and thus will all result fairly significant differences in what is comfortable, true?

Clearly, there are some good suggestions for eliminating damaging approaches, and some good points have been made.

How could we make detailed discussions clearer, I guess is the question? Is there anyone who can make a video of their technique to share with us? I can't as of now, but I just need a memory stick for my camera and soon, I'll be able to record myself for critique....

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2003 15:58:38

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Pulgar technique concerns (in reply to Guest)

I had half my L5-S1 disc removed from my back because of poor posture in front of a computer for 20 years. It's no fun.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2003 17:59:09

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Pulgar technique concerns (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Ouch! That sounds like the very antithesis of fun.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2003 19:12:27

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Pulgar technique concerns (in reply to Escribano)

I had a few discs removed from my flat during a party once.
I was not amused in the morning.
Linda Ronstad and Lynyrd Skinners I'd brought back from the States.
Haven't heard L5-S1 though.
Is it Techno stuff?

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2003 21:18:43