picados and strength

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

picados and strength

(yes another picado post)

I have recently read a few things that kind of changed my ideas about how picado works. First, Grisha said that you needed a strong forearm to have a strong picado. Ricardo said that stamina was a limiting factor for long picado runs. And Todd believes that Sabicas' picado was great because of the great power he could bring to bear.

It doesn't seem a coincidence that these three great players all mention strength to be an important factor.

Now, my experience is dovetailing here because I am starting from a position of weakness. For almost a year, my middle finger was sore and I didn't use it for picado at all-- I switched to ia. Now, in the last couple months I have been gradually switching back to im and trying to build it up.

First I noticed, that a lot of runs that I used to be able to get through were stopping. Always on an m as it rose (toward the ceiling). I also noticed it just seemed to take a lot of energy to get through the string sometimes. Also, some bad habits of tension, gripping, curling up unused fingers occured. And finally, I noticed that after awhile, my hand would get tired and performance would deteriorate.

It seems to me that this experience corroborates the earlier comments. Now, it's not really a great discovery to say that if you don't play with your m figner for a year then it's going to be tough coming back quickly, but to me it was the way it was difficult. These symptoms are ones that happen to lots of people and inhibit them from playing good picado--whether or not they have been injured.

Luckily, my improvement has been quick. My procedure is to play two octave scales, quite slowly and with a relaxed hand. I attempt to get the i and especially m fingers to slide over the string without much resistance. I do about 12 of these, then switch to a couple in-position runs. Starting very slow. Within a couple weeks, I was getting up to pretty fast speeds without the bad habits that had been dogging me. So it seems that the strength can build up pretty quickly.

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2006 17:43:59

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Well, I know I still have a ways to go but I've improved a lot recently.

Don't wanna deny that strength is a factor, especially since people who play faster than me claim it. Still I was practising picado with as much strength and little movement as possible and needed to practise for hours a day to be fast. 15 minutes a day definitely wouldn't cut it.

Then I had a little discussion with none other than you

who suggested trying different ways of playing, different angles of attack in different positions and improving that way instead of ignorantly practising exactly the same way every day.

So then I took on a sideway angle, straightened the fingers a bit and turned a powerful claw position into loose flying fingers. Now I'm faster than before and only practise picado about 10 minutes a day.

My 2 cents!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2006 19:37:26

Tenshu

Posts: 150
Joined: Oct. 18 2003
From: Belgium

RE: picados and strength (in reply to John O.)

Scott Tennant teaches strength as an important factor, and it has helped me tremendously (that, and staccato practice!).

The trick is, and this may sound weird: develop a strong rasgueado. ST claims many flamenco players have such insane picado because they have developed strength and speed in flinging the fingers *outwards*!

So practice rasgueado... Try patterns like these:

x a x a ...
a m a m...
m i m i ...
x m x m ...

Rasgueado and picado practice in one.

Good luck

_____________________________

-T

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2006 20:29:12

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Typical.
I remember Abel Carlevaro also teached sth. like that.
Saying that the upward movement of the fingers was as important as the downward movement.
He called it paso militaro ( militairy step). You've got to march with your fingers (large movements)

Since I heard of the minimal movement thing I thought his method was not right.
But maybe there is some truth in his method.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2006 21:27:04

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

hmm.. my picado isnt very stacato. More soft. But its coz I allways have protection on my nails. When I play without, my picado sounds good stacato, too. But I can only play 1-2 hours withut protection, than the nail break.. :.(
Im not very fast with 2 fingers..Only around 140-150. But I practice the 3fingerpicado. With 3 fingers I can play easy on 180. And with less controll faster. But the 3 fingerpicado doesnt sound very staccato.
So there is allways one side good, but the other worser. Speed or staccato. I have to choose. What a mess!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2006 21:42:43

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

doit, 150's not going to cut it if you're going to play better than Sabicas! :)

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 13:15:49

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I think staccto pratice is just that ... practicing staccato but not neccessarily playing staccato. I play repeated notes staccato as short possible at a slow tempo so that I can focus on the fast return of the opposite (if you play i, m returns to the string to amke the staccato) finger. Then when you relax, your alternation is that much quicker.

I've alway considered the strength in a 'bruce lee' find of way :) You can develop giant muscles and get power that way or develop lean muscles but add a quickness of movement to enhance the power. If you muscle through the strings in a heavy handed way you get a certain amount of power but it can sound sluggish but if you cut through the string with speed and power (even when playing slowly) you get a clear attack and same power. My 1.5 cents.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 14:26:15

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: picados and strength (in reply to seanm)

Ah, here you can get into a whole big thing

Looking at the Wing Tsun Kung Fu method, you're supposed to develop strength and speed at the same time by learning the difference between the muscle power than stiffens you up and slows you down and the the flexible power which makes you fast and tireless. There are lots of parallels...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 14:42:59

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
I have recently read a few things that kind of changed my ideas about how picado works. First, Grisha said that you needed a strong forearm to have a strong picado. Ricardo said that stamina was a limiting factor for long picado runs. And Todd believes that Sabicas' picado was great because of the great power he could bring to bear.

It doesn't seem a coincidence that these three great players all mention strength to be an important factor.

They don't. Strength, stamina and power are all different things.

_____________________________

Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 15:02:16

Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I'm not sure if it applies, but I remember reading about 2 general types of muscle fibers - red and white.

If I remember correctly, the red muscle fibers are slow (?) twitch, and the white are fast (?) twitch. I'ts been a few years, and i'm going purely by memory here.

The way it was explained was that the red fibers don't produce much speed, but can function for longer periods. On the contrary, white fibers are fast, but contract only in short bursts.

With this logic, a guitarist with a fast picado has encorporated more white muscle fibers into the technique. The challenge to a fast picado would then become how to encorporate more white muscle fibers. Not trying to dispute what the experts here suggest, as I'm sure if they say forarm strength is important, then it probably is.
Just a thought.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 15:17:00

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Okay.... what's the difference between tapping fingers on a tabletop and playing picado at the same speed? Wouldn't it have to be, in the main, strength? You could make the motion identical if you tried.

Also, if you have a top bench press of 300 lbs, wouldn't you have more stamina at bench press than someone with a top bench press of 100 lbs? In other words, couldn't you bench 80 lbs more times? So stamina in this situation _is_ strength.

It does seem that people have different abilities. Some people just can't move their bodies very quickly, some people can. Some people can slam a basketball, some people can barely get off the ground...

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 15:45:06

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Okay.... what's the difference between tapping fingers on a tabletop and playing picado at the same speed?

I can't see how this is relevant to what we are discussing, but there are several small but important details that make the two motions different:

Tapping on table top is purely flexion and extension of the large knuckle joint. If you mirrored the same action on the guitar strings the finger would crash into the string it just plucked on its return. Thus the middle joint has to flex/extend separately to the large joint in order to clear the string and return.

quote:

Also, if you have a top bench press of 300 lbs, wouldn't you have more stamina at bench press than someone with a top bench press of 100 lbs? In other words, couldn't you bench 80 lbs more times?

No, that does not necessarily follow at all Mike. Ask any athlete. The person with the top bench press of 100 lbs may have far more stamina, and over a period of time may be able to lift far more weight in total.

Good example: marathon runner vs weight lifter vs football (soccer) player

who has the most strength in their legs? - weight lifter
who has the most stamina? - marathon runner
why did I mention soccer player? Because they can generate more power over a short distance with their legs, and thats the key.

_____________________________

Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 16:05:55

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Table tapping provides you no feedback. When you train to pluck guitar string there are numerous elements in the movement that provide your brain feedback to react too. For instance, when you touch the string your muscles tense, when you land on the next string you relax, etc.

I think to understand what roles strength, stamina and speed play in a picado (and fast picado) stroke you need to itentifiy how each affects the stroke and how each contribute. Strength gets your finger from one side of the string to the other without your finger collapsing. All the strength in the world is not going to get that finger back ready for the next stroke any faster because you are simply lifting the finger and the only resistance (the thing that strength works on) is air. This is where reflex speed comes in. The ability for the brain to say "hey I just hit the next string ... time to relax my abductor muscles and reverse direction and use my extensor muscles". Stamina is what allows you to repleat this cycle over and over without the fatigue.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 16:23:29

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Okay, thanks for the clarifications. So we actually have _limiting_ factors for picado.

1. strength - the ability to get the finger through the string without the finger collapsing (and perhaps, without throwing the hand out of alignment)

2. stamina - how many times this can be accomplished without significant performance degradation

3. reflex speed - the ability to recharge and reset the mechanism

So it would seem that to increase picado efficiency (ease), you would want strength, stamina, and reflex speed. Stamina could be increased by increasing the duration of scales that are practiced, I would assume. Reflex speed, perhaps, by stacatto practice and speed bursts (that's the theory at least, right?). Strength, perhaps by practicing closer to the bridge, or on guitars strung with higher tension than the one you play on?

It seems that Jon's definition of power is strength + reflex speed? Kind of an athletic definition, because if you're as strong as an ox, but only move at it's pace, that's not going to help speed. (by the way, John, the strength test for the NFL is to see how many times you can bench press 225 lbs. The guy from the Dallas Cowboys always wins it, I think with around 44 times. Anyways, stamina is in there somewhere I think. Myself, I could only do it once!)

So, if we can bring this discussion back to my original framework, would increasing effective strength, stamina, and power in the picado mechanism eliminate some of the telltale signs of breaking down such as tension habits, and thus lead to greater ease (and speed). Part of me believes that we are all built with a certain level of speed in our muscles, and our job is to arrange things so that it can be released. After all, you can't turn a normal person into a sprinter or a jumper.

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 16:42:40

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I think to become speed the control has an important role. If your brain got a run you can play it very fast with much control.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 16:49:13

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel, I think you've summeraized all that very well. That is exactly the elements to consider. Power is basically the amount of strength generated over time so more strength in a shorter time (or distance) is an increase in power.

The final key is coordination of these elements so that you switch from one to the other in the most efficient manner (going from tense to relaxed, etc) and through increased coordination of these elements you can teach speed. The reduction of tension comes from teaching yourself to relax at the right moments and to relax quickly. Pablo Casals is quoted as saying that he plays so fast for so long by "relaxing between the notes" ... sounds flakey but it is completely true. You only need to be tense for a small portion of the stroke and you 'build in' the relaxation through carefully praticing the non-tense elements of the stoke.

Sean

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 16:52:58

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 1 votes

Come to think of it, I did not mean the raw power in your wrist. It's the stamina that matters, how much you can take over an extended period of time. However, in order to play a scale at 220-240 or so you need to have a lot of strength in your hand. To get an idea of how it feels try pushing 2 strings hard near the bridge for 5 seconds (using just your fingers, not the weight of the wrist), with m and i fingers on 1st and 2nd strings respectively. Try playing normally after this. Notice any difference? Also, I think speed has mostly to do with how fast you can relax your muscles. Just some unordered ideas here.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 16:58:56

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Tenshu)

quote:

The trick is, and this may sound weird: develop a strong rasgueado. ST claims many flamenco players have such insane picado because they have developed strength and speed in flinging the fingers *outwards*!

If you folks are going to look at this from the POV of athletics or kinesthetics, then this might also be something to look at.

When exercising any muscle group one must also exercise the opposing muscle group.
Building size in your biceps will be limited if your triceps are underdeveloped.

Most cyclists have well developed quads, but their hamstrings are often neglected, but it's the hams that aid the part of the movement that returns the leg to the starting position.

Many novice runners get shin-splints (cramps in the muscle in the shin area), and the resolution to this is to build up that muscle.

As well, with any kind of work out routine one must look at their end goals. Strength and endurance require different styles of workout. Speed and power do as well.
A boxer may perform plyometric exercises (e.g. clapping push-ups) for explosive 'power'. A runner will run down hill to train to run faster (the forced speed requires a quicker return and more coordination with out the interference of the need for 'strength'). For endurance they do circuit training.

Perhaps the rasgeao accounts for the opposing muscle groups.

But as for the other aspects, how can you create specific exsercises?
How can you isolate for speed, without the need for endurance?
How can you isolate for strength?
How can you isolate for endurance?

I imagine picado scales would be fine for endurance. If you can do it to exhaustion and focus on perfect movement.

Could you isolate for strength and speed by messing with string tension(s)?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 17:21:38

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: picados and strength (in reply to seanm)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seanm
Pablo Casals is quoted as saying that he plays so fast for so long by "relaxing between the notes" ... sounds flakey but it is completely true. You only need to be tense for a small portion of the stroke and you 'build in' the relaxation through carefully praticing the non-tense elements of the stoke.

I agree with that. Its about generating ballistic movement. How quickly can the muscle relax after its is fired (in order to prepare for the next stroke).

Berg (a protege of Shearer) has exercises in his book that go into all this - practicing both the flexion and relaxation phases of a stroke.

I think the strength factor is always overestimated. Do we discuss a touch-typists skills in terms of strength?

_____________________________

Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 17:58:07

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Jon,
the only reason I brought up strength was because I heard Grisha and Todd talk about it (although perhaps I misinterpreted it). And also because the weakness of my m finger, caused by a low level of use, seemed to cause problems.

Grisha, thank you for that clarification of what you meant. I am wondering, how do you become stronger in the hand to accomplish this? Would playing loud scales do it? Do you think switching to a higher tension guitar might be worth it?

Exitao, maybe one way to isolate for speed would be to play rest strokes way up near the soundhole. The strings there are very soft, and don't require as much muscular force to more. Is the sensation sort of like running down a hill, where you feel sloppy as if you have lost control? Just an idea...

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 18:14:36

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: picados and strength (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel, an exercise Norbert Kraft showed me once was a sort of over exagerated stroke that may help with strength. You do this

1) place you hand in to position for playing a note.
2) lift i finger high above toward the ceiling as you put it)
3) In a very relaxed way, bring the i finger down into contact with the string (making sure it is nicely settled how you want it to be)
4) tense the i finger and play through the string and the immediately relax

So there are basically three components:
1) to the string 2) through the string and 3) after the string

where you focus on

1) relax (and placement) 2) power (therefore your strength exercise) 3) relax (as fast a possible).

I think if you worked with your m finger in this manner it will become much more secure and stronger. A nice exercise non the less :)
Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2006 18:41:00