Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
El Vito - Flamenco?
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login | |
|
Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
|
RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (in reply to Romanza)
|
|
|
Sorry the pedantry, but "begs the question must be dealt with". The true meaning here (wikipedia): "In logic, begging the question is the term for a type of fallacy occurring in deductive reasoning in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. For an example of this, consider the following argument: "Politicians cannot be trusted. Only an untrustworthy person would run for office. The fact that politicians are untrustworthy is proof of this, therefore, politicians cannot be trusted." Such an argument is fallacious, because it relies upon its own proposition—in this case, "politicians are untrustworthy"—in order to support its central premise. Essentially, the argument assumes that its central point is already proven, and uses this in support of itself." And on to the "exception that proves the rule", from phrases.org.uk: exception that proves the rule Meaning Normally with these meanings and origins the meaning is well-understood or self-evident and the interesting aspect is how, where and when the phrase originated. This one is a little different - it's the meaning that is generally not understood. To the untutored ear it might appear to mean 'if there's a rule and I can find a counter-example to it, then the rule must be true'. This is clearly nonsense. For example, if our rule were 'all birds can fly', the existence of a flightless bird like a penguin hardly proves that rule to be correct. In fact it proves just the opposite. So, and here the maxim 'a little learning is a dangerous thing' comes into play, it has been suggested that it's an alternative meaning of the word prove that is the source of the confusion. Prove can mean several things, including 'to establish as true' and 'to put to trial or to test'. The second option is what is used in 'proving ground', 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating', etc. It could be argued then that the phrase means 'it is the exception that tests whether the rule is true or not'. In our example the existence of a bird that can't fly would put the 'all birds can fly' rule to the test (and find it wanting). That's all very well and most people would be happy to stop there. Unfortunately, when we go back to the legal origin of the phrase we see that it doesn't mean that at all. It's the word exception rather than prove that is causing the confusion here. By exception we usually mean 'something unusual, not following a rule'. What it means here though is 'the act of leaving out or ignoring'. If we have a statement like 'entry is free of charge on Sundays', we can reasonably assume that, as a general rule, entry is charged for. So, from that statement, here's our rule: You usually have to pay to get in. The exception on Sunday is demonstrating that the rule exists. It isn't testing whether the incorrect rule 'you have to pay' is true or not, and it certainly isn't proving that incorrect rule to be true. Origin It's a legal maxim, established in English law in the early 17th century. Written, as law was in those days, in Latin: Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis and is interpreted to mean ‘exception confirms the rule in the cases not excepted’ It has (slightly modified) examples in print going back to at least 1617: Collins: Indefinites are equivalent to vniversalls especially where one exception being made, it is plaine that all others are thereby cut off, according to the rule Exceptio figit regulam in non exceptis. While not the earliest citation, this, from Giovanni Torriano's, Piazza universale di proverbi italiani, or A Common Place of Italian Proverbs, 1666, expresses the idea clearly: "The exception gives Authority to the Rule."
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it. https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 26 2006 21:19:59
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (in reply to Exitao)
|
|
|
quote:
Ignoring the last post, is it possible that they teach it in a Flamenco dance class because it's an interesting zapateo using similar/same techniques? Well "it" is not the music itself, rather some choreography that was learned from someone, or made up. Zapateado or not is incidental. It is not flamenco, the studenst are learning El Vito, very simple. quote:
Sorry the pedantry, but "begs the question must be dealt with". The true meaning here (wikipedia): "In logic, begging the question is the term for a type of fallacy occurring in deductive reasoning in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. For an example of this, consider the following argument: "Politicians cannot be trusted. Only an untrustworthy person would run for office. The fact that politicians are untrustworthy is proof of this, therefore, politicians cannot be trusted." Such an argument is fallacious, because it relies upon its own proposition—in this case, "politicians are untrustworthy"—in order to support its central premise. Essentially, the argument assumes that its central point is already proven, and uses this in support of itself." And on to the "exception that proves the rule", from phrases.org.uk: exception that proves the rule Meaning Normally with these meanings and origins the meaning is well-understood or self-evident and the interesting aspect is how, where and when the phrase originated. This one is a little different - it's the meaning that is generally not understood. To the untutored ear it might appear to mean 'if there's a rule and I can find a counter-example to it, then the rule must be true'. This is clearly nonsense. For example, if our rule were 'all birds can fly', the existence of a flightless bird like a penguin hardly proves that rule to be correct. In fact it proves just the opposite. So, and here the maxim 'a little learning is a dangerous thing' comes into play, it has been suggested that it's an alternative meaning of the word prove that is the source of the confusion. Prove can mean several things, including 'to establish as true' and 'to put to trial or to test'. The second option is what is used in 'proving ground', 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating', etc. It could be argued then that the phrase means 'it is the exception that tests whether the rule is true or not'. In our example the existence of a bird that can't fly would put the 'all birds can fly' rule to the test (and find it wanting). That's all very well and most people would be happy to stop there. Unfortunately, when we go back to the legal origin of the phrase we see that it doesn't mean that at all. It's the word exception rather than prove that is causing the confusion here. By exception we usually mean 'something unusual, not following a rule'. What it means here though is 'the act of leaving out or ignoring'. If we have a statement like 'entry is free of charge on Sundays', we can reasonably assume that, as a general rule, entry is charged for. So, from that statement, here's our rule: You usually have to pay to get in. The exception on Sunday is demonstrating that the rule exists. It isn't testing whether the incorrect rule 'you have to pay' is true or not, and it certainly isn't proving that incorrect rule to be true. Origin It's a legal maxim, established in English law in the early 17th century. Written, as law was in those days, in Latin: Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis and is interpreted to mean ‘exception confirms the rule in the cases not excepted’ It has (slightly modified) examples in print going back to at least 1617: Collins: Indefinites are equivalent to vniversalls especially where one exception being made, it is plaine that all others are thereby cut off, according to the rule Exceptio figit regulam in non exceptis. While not the earliest citation, this, from Giovanni Torriano's, Piazza universale di proverbi italiani, or A Common Place of Italian Proverbs, 1666, expresses the idea clearly: "The exception gives Authority to the Rule." Oh. What about "SORT OF" begs the question?
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 27 2006 16:47:29
|
|
Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
|
RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (in reply to Romanza)
|
|
|
quote:
Well "it" is not the music itself, rather some choreography that was learned from someone, or made up. Zapateado or not is incidental. It is not flamenco, the studenst are learning El Vito, very simple. I had the above thought because I wasn't sure what level these students were learning at. I thought there was a possibility that they were still novices. I used to study ballroom dance. In the beginning, we always had music on but not the music of the actual dances were were learning. We were learning Waltz or Foxtrot, but the music was not Waltz or Foxtrot. If the music was not correct, was the dance technique still correct? Or should I have been learning with the correct music, from the beginning? What about Mambo? Every paso found in Salsa is also found in Mambo. If I learned Mambo, did I learn Salsa? Or is Salsa (despite not being Mambo) relevant enough to teach as a step towards Mambo? The point I was getting at was that, while not Flamenco, El Vito could possibly similar enough in technique/form that it would assist in their overall education in Flamenco.
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 28 2006 5:28:29
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (in reply to Exitao)
|
|
|
quote:
If the music was not correct, was the dance technique still correct? Or should I have been learning with the correct music, from the beginning? Do I really need to answer that? The point of dancing is to move to the music. Even flamenco follows this rule. The problem is HOW do you learn steps. Most students learn a choreography. They need the music to follow them, or they need a certain music. Manuela Carrasco does not dance a choreography. She dances La Solea, a piece of music. In a flamenco company with a large group of dancers, it is common to set a choreography to music so everyone is together. Usually students are involved in group numbers, and the masters do solos. Just like in martial arts you learn a kata or choreographed series of fighting moves. But is it "fighting"? The point is to learn the moves, get ideas for what you COULD do. But the real life situation requires freedom to move outside a choreography. Techniques are only "right" if you understand how to apply them. quote:
What about Mambo? Every paso found in Salsa is also found in Mambo. If I learned Mambo, did I learn Salsa? Or is Salsa (despite not being Mambo) relevant enough to teach as a step towards Mambo? Not so sure EVERY step in Salsa is in Mambo. My understanding is Salsa is more complex, but I am not a dancer. I would say Mambo is Mambo, Salsa is Salsa, Merengue is Merengue. quote:
El Vito could possibly similar enough in technique/form that it would assist in their overall education in Flamenco. "Possibly", but why not learn, oh I don't know, Solea? If your question is it a steping stone to more advanced flamenco, I say no. Just like classical guitar training is not a pre requisite for playing flamenco. They have their own musical style and techniques. For dance it is the same, you need flamenco music to base your dance on. I have seen El Vito taught and practiced for the sake of a performance, where the director indended on mixing Spanish classical, Folk (jota, sevillanas), and flamenco. El Vito was a nice choreography the company dancers could do as a group. Just ask the teacher why her flamenco students are learning El Vito. Most flamenco students learn sevillanas and rumba too, which again could be considered not "flamenco" though they use some of the same moves. Typically teachers will have a separate "sevillanas" class, or teach it in the lowest entry level class. So if there is any stepping stone to flamenco, it would be Sevillanas. Ricardo
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 28 2006 6:37:41
|
|
Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
|
RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (in reply to Romanza)
|
|
|
I can't say why a teacher would decide to add a given dance to the curriculum. It could be a whim. I could be that the instructor feels that he or she is an instructor of folk music (of which Flamenco is technically a part of) but focuses primarily on flamenco, for whatever reason (e.g. revenues). It could be that, again in the analogy of ballroom dance, that a seemingly non-relevant dance actually is relative to certain technical aspects. For example, many white non-Latin people have difficulty learning the 'Cuban' hip movement, so a side trip into Salsa or Merengue might help them get the feel for what should be an incredibly simple movement and this leads to better technique with (ballroom) Rumba and Mambo (Salsa could only be called more difficult by people confused by its lack of pasos fijados and its freestyle nature, but just like Flamenco there are people who don't think modern Salsa is Salsa, the same way a ballroom Paso Doble looks nothing like the 'real thing'). You may be right that this extra-curricular sojourns are unnecessary, but then the one thing I hear people in this forum say is that Classical training really helps with technique in the left hand... However, this is all wild speculation as I know jack spit about El Vito or that particular teacher opted to teach it. I was just offering unsolicited conjecture that might suggest the person in question was not insane.
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 29 2006 6:14:39
|
|
New Messages |
No New Messages |
Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
Locked w/ New Messages |
Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|