El Vito - Flamenco? (Full Version)

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Romanza -> El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2006 11:59:05)

Hi guys, can you shed some light on this for me. Is El Vito, which I thought was originally composed for piano, flamenco?

Paco recorded this on a compilation CD called Entre Dos Aguas - it sounds great. It is apparently also featured on a Paco CD called 'Recital de guitarra', which suggests to me it is a classical / spanish piece as opposed to Flamenco.

Then again, I could just be talking rubbish!

However, the reason I ask is that I am thinking of joining this flamenco dance class, and apparently the dance we will be learning is El Vito. To me it seems an odd one to dance to. I have no idea what Palos it falls into - if indeed it is in a palos.

Any clues?




Kate -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2006 12:17:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Romanza
I am thinking of joining this flamenco dance class, and apparently the dance we will be learning is El Vito. To me it seems an odd one to dance to. I have no idea what Palos it falls into - if indeed it is in a palos.

Any clues?


I had never heard of this so had a look in my books. It is not mentioned in the 'Andalucian Guide to Flamenco' but Robin Totton's book once again came up trumps and mentions it in his glossary so I'll quote it " Andalusian folk song and dance in fast 3/8 time( not flamenco) "

Still it sounds interesting.

Kate




Romanza -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2006 12:23:49)

Aha! As I suspected. Thanks Kate.

It's a great tune - flamenco or not. You can listen to a good sample here on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000046MM/qid=1145622138/sr=8-5/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i5_xgl/026-7094350-5902864

(Last song)




Romanza -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2006 12:32:57)

quote:

Andalusian folk song and dance in fast 3/8 time( not flamenco) "

Which sort of begs the question - why teach this in a flamenco dance class..




Jim9guitars -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2006 14:50:30)

The Paco de Lucia version of El Vito is also a dance song at the only local flamenco dance class in my area. I have come across easier songs called El Vito that have similarities in the melody that would maybe suggest that El Vito is more of a form than a song, even if it isn't quite flamenco.

Jim




Ricardo -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2006 17:16:42)

Federico Garcia Lorca composed some tunes based on popular songs and "flamenco" forms. Zorongo is a sort of bulerias, as is Anda Jaleo. Cafe de Chinitas is Peteneras. El Vito is an other famous one. Paco first played it on his album of Garcia Lorca Duets with Ricardo Modrego.

Flamenco people really love and respect the music of Lorca, even though he was mainly a poet. I consider his music "classical Spanish" with flamenco influence. Learn it and think of it as a standard that most flamencos know. In fact learn some of the other Garcia Lorca tunes while you are at it.




Romanza -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2006 20:56:08)

It becoming a bit clearer - I have trawled the internet and found a few 'El Vitos' that seem to be variations on the PDL version.
quote:

Federico Garcia Lorca composed some tunes based on popular songs and "flamenco" forms.

So does El Vito resemble any particular palos? Not to my ear, but I can only recognise 3 or 4 so far..




Ricardo -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2006 23:08:57)

It would work as a bulerias, although it is not a bulerias. Like I said, "based" on flamenco.




Miguel de Maria -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 26 2006 21:19:59)

Sorry the pedantry, but "begs the question must be dealt with". The true meaning here (wikipedia):

"In logic, begging the question is the term for a type of fallacy occurring in deductive reasoning in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. For an example of this, consider the following argument: "Politicians cannot be trusted. Only an untrustworthy person would run for office. The fact that politicians are untrustworthy is proof of this, therefore, politicians cannot be trusted." Such an argument is fallacious, because it relies upon its own proposition—in this case, "politicians are untrustworthy"—in order to support its central premise. Essentially, the argument assumes that its central point is already proven, and uses this in support of itself."

And on to the "exception that proves the rule", from phrases.org.uk:


exception that proves the rule
Meaning

Normally with these meanings and origins the meaning is well-understood or self-evident and the interesting aspect is how, where and when the phrase originated. This one is a little different - it's the meaning that is generally not understood.

To the untutored ear it might appear to mean 'if there's a rule and I can find a counter-example to it, then the rule must be true'. This is clearly nonsense. For example, if our rule were 'all birds can fly', the existence of a flightless bird like a penguin hardly proves that rule to be correct. In fact it proves just the opposite.

So, and here the maxim 'a little learning is a dangerous thing' comes into play, it has been suggested that it's an alternative meaning of the word prove that is the source of the confusion. Prove can mean several things, including 'to establish as true' and 'to put to trial or to test'. The second option is what is used in 'proving ground', 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating', etc. It could be argued then that the phrase means 'it is the exception that tests whether the rule is true or not'. In our example the existence of a bird that can't fly would put the 'all birds can fly' rule to the test (and find it wanting).

That's all very well and most people would be happy to stop there. Unfortunately, when we go back to the legal origin of the phrase we see that it doesn't mean that at all. It's the word exception rather than prove that is causing the confusion here. By exception we usually mean 'something unusual, not following a rule'. What it means here though is 'the act of leaving out or ignoring'.

If we have a statement like 'entry is free of charge on Sundays', we can reasonably assume that, as a general rule, entry is charged for.

So, from that statement, here's our rule:

You usually have to pay to get in.

The exception on Sunday is demonstrating that the rule exists. It isn't testing whether the incorrect rule 'you have to pay' is true or not, and it certainly isn't proving that incorrect rule to be true.

Origin

It's a legal maxim, established in English law in the early 17th century. Written, as law was in those days, in Latin:

Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis

and is interpreted to mean ‘exception confirms the rule in the cases not excepted’

It has (slightly modified) examples in print going back to at least 1617:

Collins: Indefinites are equivalent to vniversalls especially where one exception being made, it is plaine that all others are thereby cut off, according to the rule Exceptio figit regulam in non exceptis.

While not the earliest citation, this, from Giovanni Torriano's, Piazza universale di proverbi italiani, or A Common Place of Italian Proverbs, 1666, expresses the idea clearly:

"The exception gives Authority to the Rule."




Exitao -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 27 2006 4:00:29)

Ignoring the last post, is it possible that they teach it in a Flamenco dance class because it's an interesting zapateo using similar/same techniques?




Ricardo -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 27 2006 16:47:29)

quote:

Ignoring the last post, is it possible that they teach it in a Flamenco dance class because it's an interesting zapateo using similar/same techniques?


Well "it" is not the music itself, rather some choreography that was learned from someone, or made up. Zapateado or not is incidental. It is not flamenco, the studenst are learning El Vito, very simple.

quote:

Sorry the pedantry, but "begs the question must be dealt with". The true meaning here (wikipedia):

"In logic, begging the question is the term for a type of fallacy occurring in deductive reasoning in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. For an example of this, consider the following argument: "Politicians cannot be trusted. Only an untrustworthy person would run for office. The fact that politicians are untrustworthy is proof of this, therefore, politicians cannot be trusted." Such an argument is fallacious, because it relies upon its own proposition—in this case, "politicians are untrustworthy"—in order to support its central premise. Essentially, the argument assumes that its central point is already proven, and uses this in support of itself."

And on to the "exception that proves the rule", from phrases.org.uk:


exception that proves the rule
Meaning

Normally with these meanings and origins the meaning is well-understood or self-evident and the interesting aspect is how, where and when the phrase originated. This one is a little different - it's the meaning that is generally not understood.

To the untutored ear it might appear to mean 'if there's a rule and I can find a counter-example to it, then the rule must be true'. This is clearly nonsense. For example, if our rule were 'all birds can fly', the existence of a flightless bird like a penguin hardly proves that rule to be correct. In fact it proves just the opposite.

So, and here the maxim 'a little learning is a dangerous thing' comes into play, it has been suggested that it's an alternative meaning of the word prove that is the source of the confusion. Prove can mean several things, including 'to establish as true' and 'to put to trial or to test'. The second option is what is used in 'proving ground', 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating', etc. It could be argued then that the phrase means 'it is the exception that tests whether the rule is true or not'. In our example the existence of a bird that can't fly would put the 'all birds can fly' rule to the test (and find it wanting).

That's all very well and most people would be happy to stop there. Unfortunately, when we go back to the legal origin of the phrase we see that it doesn't mean that at all. It's the word exception rather than prove that is causing the confusion here. By exception we usually mean 'something unusual, not following a rule'. What it means here though is 'the act of leaving out or ignoring'.

If we have a statement like 'entry is free of charge on Sundays', we can reasonably assume that, as a general rule, entry is charged for.

So, from that statement, here's our rule:

You usually have to pay to get in.

The exception on Sunday is demonstrating that the rule exists. It isn't testing whether the incorrect rule 'you have to pay' is true or not, and it certainly isn't proving that incorrect rule to be true.

Origin

It's a legal maxim, established in English law in the early 17th century. Written, as law was in those days, in Latin:

Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis

and is interpreted to mean ‘exception confirms the rule in the cases not excepted’

It has (slightly modified) examples in print going back to at least 1617:

Collins: Indefinites are equivalent to vniversalls especially where one exception being made, it is plaine that all others are thereby cut off, according to the rule Exceptio figit regulam in non exceptis.

While not the earliest citation, this, from Giovanni Torriano's, Piazza universale di proverbi italiani, or A Common Place of Italian Proverbs, 1666, expresses the idea clearly:

"The exception gives Authority to the Rule."


Oh. What about "SORT OF" begs the question?[;)]




Exitao -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 28 2006 5:28:29)

quote:

Well "it" is not the music itself, rather some choreography that was learned from someone, or made up. Zapateado or not is incidental. It is not flamenco, the studenst are learning El Vito, very simple.



I had the above thought because I wasn't sure what level these students were learning at. I thought there was a possibility that they were still novices.

I used to study ballroom dance. In the beginning, we always had music on but not the music of the actual dances were were learning. We were learning Waltz or Foxtrot, but the music was not Waltz or Foxtrot.
If the music was not correct, was the dance technique still correct? Or should I have been learning with the correct music, from the beginning?

What about Mambo? Every paso found in Salsa is also found in Mambo. If I learned Mambo, did I learn Salsa? Or is Salsa (despite not being Mambo) relevant enough to teach as a step towards Mambo?

The point I was getting at was that, while not Flamenco, El Vito could possibly similar enough in technique/form that it would assist in their overall education in Flamenco.




Ricardo -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 28 2006 6:37:41)

quote:

If the music was not correct, was the dance technique still correct? Or should I have been learning with the correct music, from the beginning?



Do I really need to answer that? The point of dancing is to move to the music. Even flamenco follows this rule. The problem is HOW do you learn steps. Most students learn a choreography. They need the music to follow them, or they need a certain music. Manuela Carrasco does not dance a choreography. She dances La Solea, a piece of music. In a flamenco company with a large group of dancers, it is common to set a choreography to music so everyone is together. Usually students are involved in group numbers, and the masters do solos.

Just like in martial arts you learn a kata or choreographed series of fighting moves. But is it "fighting"? The point is to learn the moves, get ideas for what you COULD do. But the real life situation requires freedom to move outside a choreography. Techniques are only "right" if you understand how to apply them.

quote:

What about Mambo? Every paso found in Salsa is also found in Mambo. If I learned Mambo, did I learn Salsa? Or is Salsa (despite not being Mambo) relevant enough to teach as a step towards Mambo?


Not so sure EVERY step in Salsa is in Mambo. My understanding is Salsa is more complex, but I am not a dancer. I would say Mambo is Mambo, Salsa is Salsa, Merengue is Merengue.

quote:

El Vito could possibly similar enough in technique/form that it would assist in their overall education in Flamenco.


"Possibly", but why not learn, oh I don't know, Solea? If your question is it a steping stone to more advanced flamenco, I say no. Just like classical guitar training is not a pre requisite for playing flamenco. They have their own musical style and techniques. For dance it is the same, you need flamenco music to base your dance on.

I have seen El Vito taught and practiced for the sake of a performance, where the director indended on mixing Spanish classical, Folk (jota, sevillanas), and flamenco. El Vito was a nice choreography the company dancers could do as a group.

Just ask the teacher why her flamenco students are learning El Vito. Most flamenco students learn sevillanas and rumba too, which again could be considered not "flamenco" though they use some of the same moves. Typically teachers will have a separate "sevillanas" class, or teach it in the lowest entry level class. So if there is any stepping stone to flamenco, it would be Sevillanas.

Ricardo




Exitao -> RE: El Vito - Flamenco? (Apr. 29 2006 6:14:39)

I can't say why a teacher would decide to add a given dance to the curriculum. It could be a whim. I could be that the instructor feels that he or she is an instructor of folk music (of which Flamenco is technically a part of) but focuses primarily on flamenco, for whatever reason (e.g. revenues).

It could be that, again in the analogy of ballroom dance, that a seemingly non-relevant dance actually is relative to certain technical aspects. For example, many white non-Latin people have difficulty learning the 'Cuban' hip movement, so a side trip into Salsa or Merengue might help them get the feel for what should be an incredibly simple movement and this leads to better technique with (ballroom) Rumba and Mambo (Salsa could only be called more difficult by people confused by its lack of pasos fijados and its freestyle nature, but just like Flamenco there are people who don't think modern Salsa is Salsa, the same way a ballroom Paso Doble looks nothing like the 'real thing').

You may be right that this extra-curricular sojourns are unnecessary, but then the one thing I hear people in this forum say is that Classical training really helps with technique in the left hand...

However, this is all wild speculation as I know jack spit about El Vito or that particular teacher opted to teach it. I was just offering unsolicited conjecture that might suggest the person in question was not insane.




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