Teodoro Perez and luthiers

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d.eduardo

Posts: 32
Joined: Jun. 1 2006

Teodoro Perez and luthiers

Hi,

Currently putting the feelers out for a custom built flamenco guitar.
Over the years due to over-stretching and having shorter arms/hands, I've developed a bit of a RSI injury in the left wrist. I have given concerts, recorded an album so quite proficient. My brother lives in Madrid and one avenue I wanted to try was to contact several Madrid luthiers and start the enquiries with a view to going out there at some point. At the moment I'm in discussions with the workshop of Teodoro Perez - I was impressed with a zebrano negra I heard on the Mundo Flamenco site, and a Madagascar negra as played by Japanese Oki on Perez's own site. So, would anybody have experience with these guitars or Perez in general? The reason for negra is that I play classical and other cross-over styles as well, plus I wanted more volume and sustain. Looking for 640 scale and narrower string-spacing at nut for ease of playing. Any advice on luthiers in general would be appreciated.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2015 8:26:07

d.eduardo

Posts: 32
Joined: Jun. 1 2006

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

ok 42 hits and no replies.
Maybe I can nudge with a couple of links of real playing on these perez guitars:
http://www.teodoroperez.com/wp1/es/flamenco-concierto/
http://www.mundo-flamenco.com/nc/en/guitars/gitarren-details.html?tx_kwmundoguitars_pi3%5BshowUid%5D=173&cHash=c1b8e40c52a50ffc7e116132be0fd706

audio link is Zebrano, whilst video is Madagascar rosewood.

Let me know what you think?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2015 16:31:27

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

Your question is not clear to me. My home axe is a Tezanos Perez negra, 2003. I am not sure how similar it is to the Teodoro Perez. I use it because I too am a crossover player, having used it as a classical guitar since about 2006 when I stopped seriously studying flamenco. My classical guitar teacher at the time never even noticed it was a flamenco. If you search youtube for Numbersix rule Sor, you'll hear that guitar playing Sor etudes.

As far as that particular guitar goes, it is a beautifully crafted, fine instrument, classic details. Its tone has a bit of Ramirez in it (or is that my imagination since the luthier worked for Ramirez?). Mine is 650. Plays easily, action is fine. Tone is on the bright, glassy side, well-balanced between bass and treble. Does not take strums nearly as well as my Farretta-Shelton blanca.

If you are having hand issues, I am not sure a 640 is going to make that much of a difference. Also realize that the width of the nut is just as big of a deal as the length of the strings. I would spend a lot of time playing small-scale instruments, think 600, 618, first to see if those are actually what you need.

Check out Rob MacKillop playing so beautifully on a 600. It may be that extra 50, 55 mm is totally unnecessary for your needs.

http://robmackillop.net/the-romantic-guitar/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2015 17:10:47

d.eduardo

Posts: 32
Joined: Jun. 1 2006

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hola Miguel gracias.
Yes, interesting to hear about using your flamenco guitar for classical - I have been doing so for many years. On the "ease of playing" question, I'm very aware about the string spacing issue. I have 2 guitars - one is 667 scale with 52 nut and 42 string spacing. Other is 650 with 51 nut and 40 spacing. The latter, although a much worse guitar, is easier to play although it is deceiving as the former has better sound and also a thinner neck. One of my problems, for example, is playing J.S.Bach and stretching from 6th str 1st fret to 1st str 5th fret for one particular chord - this is why I need shorter scale length, although I hear what you say about going much shorter - that particular stretch would have to be no more than 13 cm for me to reach comfortably. I think something like 630-51-41 with 2mm action at 1st, 2.5mm at 12th is ideal for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 10 2015 10:11:12

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

No realtime experience here; but since I saw a video with Grisha trying out a T. Perez ( among several brands ) at GSI I noted down these builders´name for to not miss out on future opportunities for trying out.
I was very impressed by the crisp, metallic, perfectly rasping sound, and by what ought to have been great pulsation ( which for me means soft, still fast ).

That moment I thought if I was Grisha I would had not left without taking that one with me. However, Perez´ pricing parallels Conde primeras for one, and secondly some players like Grisha and PdL appear to prefer rather stiff pulsation.

Ruphus

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=240741&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=teodoro%2Cperez&tmode=&smode=&s=#240748

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
One thing that leaves to be investigated is its scale.... 64 cm seems to fit my hands very well.

Even though without practical experience, yet convinced that standard measures are not too ergonomical for average size folks, I asked for 64 cm scale length.
Because of difficulties regarding transport the guitar is still not in my hands, but the flamenco playing builder discovered with pleasure that this scale fits himself like a glove.

I could think of scales shorter than 65 cm to be increasing their part in the range of guitars.

With the community´s very limited experience outside of standard measures, shorter scales are being said to be a disadvantage in terms of reselling ( through advertisings at least), but I guess that might be changing.

Moreover, I suppose there will be a time when folks will learn which proportions, including spacings, suit them individually best. Like with other disciplines tools, like skiing, running, etc.

... And factories could develop sizes with individual scales length and spacings for at least S, M, and L, from maybe 165 cm to 190 tall or so.

Ruphus

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=249024&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=shorter%2Cscale&tmode=&smode=&s=#249047

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 10 2015 13:51:59

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

Michael Thames in Santa Fe, New Mexico has made quite a few shorter scale, 630ish classical guitars. He also works with the flamenco community there, so might be a good person to reach out to. For me, his guitars are world-class.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 10 2015 17:09:15

d.eduardo

Posts: 32
Joined: Jun. 1 2006

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to Ruphus)

Very interesting Ruphus. yes I remember playing a shorter scale maldonado years ago. It was quite a cheap model but was such a pleasure to play because of the accommodating dimensions. Think a lot of players think it's a cop-out to play a "smaller" guitar almost like cheating. The German proprietor of the Mundo Flamenco business and site has an excellent article on his site all about guitar Set-up.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 13 2015 20:54:21

d.eduardo

Posts: 32
Joined: Jun. 1 2006

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

Ok Miguel thanks but I'd only buy from a place I could get to fairly easily or could afford the time and money to visit. Not so easy in Scotland. Spain I can do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 13 2015 20:56:27

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

It was always said to me that flamenco guitars had unusually long scale lengths because of the use of a capo.

There are plenty of Flamenco guitar builders in the UK you could try before a trip to Spain. A friend of mine in Newcastle who goes by the name of James Doran and a member here has just set up a workshop and I know has a flamenco guitar in stock you could try. There is also Kevin Richarrds in York I believe. I guess it depends on where you live in Scotland and how far you would be willing to travel. There are also plenty of luthiers in Scotland that may also build flamenco guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2015 13:21:35

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

It was always said to me that flamenco guitars had unusually long scale lengths because of the use of a capo.

Probably part of the reason but longer scale lengths also create a more piano like clarity and separation in my experience. Same reason why guys play baritone guitars in the electric world.

Secondly and not always due to overall guitar pulsation and other factors but most of the time a longer scale will also have better snap and string reset = lower action, less buzz. These are all positives in the flamenco world considering how violent some of the techniques are.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2015 15:43:02

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

If you have RSI injuries you should perhaps be looking at makers who are known for playablility. A 640 scale can be helpful but the build is much more important if you want a guitar that is easy on the left hand. I would suggest you ask the players here about easy to play guitars.

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https://www.johnguitar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2015 15:48:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

quote:

One of my problems, for example, is playing J.S.Bach and stretching from 6th str 1s....

Play the Bach with Capo at 1...if it is STILL a problem on the regular guitar then scale length is not the issue...it's question of technique IMO.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2015 16:38:30

d.eduardo

Posts: 32
Joined: Jun. 1 2006

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to Ricardo)

Yes, it's a tricky one. Lot of my compositions that I play sound better in the key they were designed to be played in, i.e. open fretboard with no capo. I think this is much more common now in flamenco moderno. The capo hinders the natural reverberation of the string to the nut. Good players are playing Bulerias without capo in DFlat Phyrgian key and in the old days they would have placed the capo on 4 for this, particularly if accompanying singer. Also, within these pieces, I'm quite often exploring the upper reaches of the fretboard beyond 10th fret and with capo it is sometimes very difficult. I have played the Bach with capo at 1 and it is perfectly playable and there's no issue in the upper register and no longer issue with difficult chord stretch, however it just loses it's life moved up one semitone, and part of it is the guitar I play which seems to lose a lot of the tonal qualities with capo. The exceptions to this are a Solea and Taranta I play with capo on 1. If the guitar is more accessible as it comes, without capo, then you have more flexibility with the music.
On the other replies, I have contacted various British and Scottish luthiers but my usual worry is the wood quality and age and how it has been kept in this lovely damp, cold climate of ours. I may start a new thread on that one. I'd be happy to hear from the home-grown luthiers - I have seen some excellent quality builds.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2015 15:27:52

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

As long as the timber is well seasoned it doesn't matter how old it is. I have built with wood that is almost 40 years old and with wood that is 2 years old and had great results with both of them.

I think the newer wood is better quality though. The way I see it is if the wood has been around that long and left unused there must be a reason it got passed over so many times. Maybe it really was at the bottom of a really huge pile that took 40 years to reach. As timber is so expensive these days and luthiers not being the richest of people I would suggest that most of us can't afford to buy wood 40 years in advance.

I would assume all Luthiers build in a controlled enviroment these days. It's really easy to keep humidity in the right place these days. So I wouldn't worry about that either. I have probably sent over 40 instruments to live in Scotland over the years and have no problems so far.

I am glad that you have looked into some of the UK Luthiers and I don't mean to bust your chops about them either. There just seems to be a common misconception, especially among flamenco guitarists in the uk, that a decent flamenco guitar can only come from Spain. Which is simply not true. I guess Flamenco guitar sound better with a Spanish persons name in.

I am sure if for instance Anders were to up sticks and move back to Denmark (he can correct me if I got this wrong) to build guitars they would still be of the same sound and quality.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2015 16:45:23

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

As timber is so expensive these days and luthiers not being the richest of people I would suggest that most of us can't afford to buy wood 40 years in advance.

Stephen,
I have a large billet of Red Cedar that I plan to saw into tops this fall. The tree it is from was harvested in 1980. I still have about 10 or so more billets from the same tree. It shows that if you're greedy enough and have access to cheap wood it's nice to put a large quantity in your wood stock. Of course this assumes that you live into your 70's like I have.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2015 18:10:23

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Teodoro Perez and luthiers (in reply to d.eduardo)

Very nice John. I have done a fair bit of research over the years trying to get the best deals on wood but it it so difficult! Some ideas look great like buying a log but it can be a huge risk to.

I am lucky in a sense that I live within 45 minutes of 3 tone wood suppliers so can get some good bargains. Stuff like euro spruce though it's very difficult to find it under £60 a set

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2015 20:28:37