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Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and i... (in reply to Filip)
Yeah, that caught my interest many years back as well. Hate to disappoint you, but" seguiriyas" comes from "seguidillas" from "seguida" from "seguir" (to follow), and was a type of dance in the pre-flamenco ages.
BTW you often find a change from "l" to "r" in Andalusia.
RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and i... (in reply to cristina)
quote:
I've got an old postcard from this place and also wondered, but Ceylon is near by India and I thought: bien puede ser, may be, and it's a holy place.
I can't speak to the etymological issue raised in the original post. I will say however that some people claim flamenco dance has roots in India. That was a motif in the 2013 tour of the Juan Siddi flamenco company in the US. I have no idea what historians of flamenco dance say about that, but I thought I'd mention it.
RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and i... (in reply to Filip)
Ed: I believe you, but would have been nice. I love it to be in the wrong (if it’s not all the time all the way trough)
towards the provenance from the seguidillas I always was sceptical, because the seguidilla is a cheerful dance. I've seen now that seguidillas also existed as a poetical form since 15th cent. with more serious content
And I wondered too: who is following whom and what reason has ist?
found now a nice explication from Gonzalo Correas (1571-1631)
" ... i de la jente de la seguida i enamorada, rufianes i sus consortes, de qienes en part icular nuevamente se les ha pegado el nombre á las seguidillas. I ellos se llaman de la seguida, i de la siga, de la vida seguida, i de la vida airada; porqe siguen su gusto i plazer i vida libre sin lei, i su furia, i siguen i corren las casas públicas, , i aun porque son seguidos i perseguidos de la Justizia."
concerning the zinkali/cingaleese/ singhalesen I'm still wondering. - different expressions for the people of Sri lanka,
in 1857 a book was published: " The Zincali : an account of the gypsies of Spain and in spanish exists the word "zíngaro" = Roma.
Maybe someone will discover, that the Roma (including gitanos) came originally from Ceylon, passing South India, rest a bit in the north-west and then starting the big peregrination. ;-)
RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and i... (in reply to cristina)
quote:
Maybe someone will discover, that the Roma (including gitanos) came originally from Ceylon, passing South India, rest a bit in the north-west and then starting the big peregrination. ;-)
Wow.......Thats a very interesting theory indeed!!
Ed...Im sorry but I also disagree with your explanation. Althought the names are similar, they are 2 separate forms. The seguidilla is an old Spanish dance like sevillanas described as
"seven "verses" are tied together by the similarity of the first three verses, the fact that the 4th and 5th verses begin in the same way as the first three, and that the 6th is based on their endings; the 7th verse is a free mixture of the beginning and ending materials just mentioned. The seven verses are enclosed by a four-bar introduction, which set the rhythm, and a 13-bar Coda which provides a brilliant ending."
You can see it performed here. What I dont understand is why the Flamenco Seguirilla was sometimes called Seguidilla. These are clearly different forms. Maybe its like comparing Tango to Tangos...two different dances one gypsy, the other not, with similar names.
RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and i... (in reply to Pimientito)
¡Ole!mi arma The first time I saw Malagueñas danced was flipante, during the feria de Málaga. But not the same (Malagueñas are Malagueñas and Sevillanas are the last vestigio de seguidillas
Thinking of going to the feria de Málaga again: original Malagueñas with traditional groups in Calle Larios, toros al lado, y buses al Real de la Feria at night. Not to mention sardinas al espito en la playa, pescao frito de muerte...........................
RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and i... (in reply to Filip)
quote:
What I dont understand is why the Flamenco Seguirilla was sometimes called Seguidilla.
here you are, another theory:
maybe some kind of hiding their's ownes from the guiris? I think it was Felix Grande relating, that till the end of the 19th cent. and further, also the clostest friends of gitano-families had to leave the houses and only listen from outdoor, when was sung a seguiriya.
And perfectly possible, that - passing the guardia civil and hearing the cries/gritos/pena negra - they would have asked: what's going on here? gitanos speaking with the devil? - the answer could have been: oh, it's just a seguidilla.
and I also can imagine, that in the beginnings of flamenco nobody would have said: "Let's sing por buleria! .. cantanos por tonà! .." More sense makes the naming by "de la tía ..." " ... lo del cojo", " la de Ronda .." o ciertas letras.
So, what palo could it be: cold soggy day , the family awaiting the sun, round a fire, someone begins to clapp hands ... and what would it "be"?? - Poll
(that's not a romantic fantasy, 20 years before I've seen it and am sure, that this still exits)
The naming and classification of "Styles" - was a made one and a mutual process with singing in life, I imagine.
does anybody know a mention of seguiriya before Antonio Machado/Demófilo??
(pfff, family is out for watching a round leather going round and I dont have to prepare the meal - ;-))
Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and i... (in reply to Pimientito)
quote:
Ed...Im sorry but I also disagree with your explanation
My explanation was ambiguous. The etymological derivation from "seguidilla" is correct IMO, and yes, the dance seguidilla is as related to seguiriyas as tango to tango
So I should have written: "and there was a type of dance of that name in the pre-flamenco ages"
En el flamenco el cante por seguiriya suele guiarse por la cuarteta de seguidilla, aunque añadiendo al tercer verso un ripio donde el heptasílabo se convierte en endecasílabo, surgiendo así la singular métrica de la estrofa sobre la que se interpretan las seguiriyas y las cabales. Por su parte las serranas y las sevillanas se guían por el modelo tradicional, la seguidilla castellana.
RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and i... (in reply to edguerin)
quote:
And also mentions "seguidillas gitanas"
This is the problem...the seguidillas gitanas is what we all now call Seguirillas. That 1+ 2+ 3 + a 4 + a 5 compas has nothing to do with the Pre-flamenco folk Seguidillas. Looking at old recordings from 40s and 50s, the term seguidillas is often used when today we would call it Seguirilla.
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The first time I saw Malagueñas danced was flipante, during the feria de Málaga. But not the same (Malagueñas are Malagueñas and Sevillanas are the last vestigio de seguidillas 
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