Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Full Version)

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Filip -> Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 10 2014 15:32:32)

Hi all,

I've just noticed that there is a place in Sri Lanka called Sigiriya - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigiriya

Does anyone have a clue whether this one is anyhow connected to flamenco, given that the two names are almost identical?
I'm just curious...

Cheers



cristina -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 10 2014 16:29:09)

Hi Filip :-)

I've got an old postcard from this place and also wondered, but Ceylon is near by India and I thought: bien puede ser, may be, and it's a holy place.

more: people from Ceylon/Sri lanka are named Cingalee/cingalese and "Zinkali" is an old name for gitanos, gipsies, (you'll found more in the web).

broad field for scientists



edguerin -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 10 2014 16:58:13)

Yeah, that caught my interest many years back as well.
Hate to disappoint you, but" seguiriyas" comes from "seguidillas" from "seguida" from "seguir" (to follow), and was a type of dance in the pre-flamenco ages.

BTW you often find a change from "l" to "r" in Andalusia.



Filip -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 11 2014 8:02:02)

Thanks for the reply.
Well, it was interesting to think to think that there is some connection, but apparently there is not.

Cristina, I didn't know about Cingalese. In Serbian (my native) it is "Cigan". This is interesting.

Cheers



athrane77 -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 11 2014 9:19:05)

I doubt that there's any connection.
Siguiriya
and Sijiriya sounds different
;)
(g is pronounced similiar to j if i is the next letter, e.g Gitano)



machopicasso -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 11 2014 9:28:43)

quote:

I've got an old postcard from this place and also wondered, but Ceylon is near by India and I thought: bien puede ser, may be, and it's a holy place.


I can't speak to the etymological issue raised in the original post. I will say however that some people claim flamenco dance has roots in India. That was a motif in the 2013 tour of the Juan Siddi flamenco company in the US. I have no idea what historians of flamenco dance say about that, but I thought I'd mention it.

Juan discusses it briefly at 3:00 in this video:



cristina -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 11 2014 13:39:18)

Ed: I believe you, but would have been nice.
I love it to be in the wrong (if it’s not all the time all the way trough)

towards the provenance from the seguidillas I always was sceptical, because the seguidilla is a cheerful dance. I've seen now that seguidillas also existed as a poetical form since 15th cent. with more serious content

And I wondered too: who is following whom and what reason has ist?

found now a nice explication from Gonzalo
Correas (1571-1631)

" ... i de la jente de la seguida i enamorada,
rufianes i sus consortes, de qienes en part
icular nuevamente se les ha pegado el
nombre á las seguidillas. I ellos se llaman de la seguida, i de la siga, de la vida
seguida, i de la vida airada; porqe siguen su gusto i plazer i vida libre sin lei, i su
furia, i siguen i corren las casas públicas,
, i
aun porque son seguidos i
perseguidos de la Justizia."

concerning the zinkali/cingaleese/ singhalesen I'm still wondering. - different expressions for the people of Sri lanka,

in 1857 a book was published: " The Zincali : an account of the gypsies of Spain
and in spanish exists the word "zíngaro" = Roma.

Maybe someone will discover, that the Roma (including gitanos) came originally from Ceylon, passing South India, rest a bit in the north-west and then starting the big peregrination. ;-)



Pimientito -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 14 2014 9:49:17)

quote:

Maybe someone will discover, that the Roma (including gitanos) came originally from Ceylon, passing South India, rest a bit in the north-west and then starting the big peregrination. ;-)


Wow.......Thats a very interesting theory indeed!!

Ed...Im sorry but I also disagree with your explanation. Althought the names are similar, they are 2 separate forms. The seguidilla is an old Spanish dance like sevillanas described as

"seven "verses" are tied together by the similarity of the first three verses, the fact that the 4th and 5th verses begin in the same way as the first three, and that the 6th is based on their endings; the 7th verse is a free mixture of the beginning and ending materials just mentioned. The seven verses are enclosed by a four-bar introduction, which set the rhythm, and a 13-bar Coda which provides a brilliant ending."

You can see it performed here. What I dont understand is why the Flamenco Seguirilla was sometimes called Seguidilla. These are clearly different forms. Maybe its like comparing Tango to Tangos...two different dances one gypsy, the other not, with similar names.



Morante -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 14 2014 13:35:23)

¡Ole!mi arma[:D] The first time I saw Malagueñas danced was flipante, during the feria de Málaga. But not the same (Malagueñas are Malagueñas and Sevillanas are the last vestigio de seguidillas[:)]

Thinking of going to the feria de Málaga again: original Malagueñas with traditional groups in Calle Larios, toros al lado, y buses al Real de la Feria at night. Not to mention sardinas al espito en la playa, pescao frito de muerte...........................



cristina -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 14 2014 16:32:07)

quote:

What I dont understand is why the Flamenco Seguirilla was sometimes called Seguidilla.


here you are, another theory:

maybe some kind of hiding their's ownes from the guiris?
I think it was Felix Grande relating, that till the end of the 19th cent. and further, also the clostest friends of gitano-families had to leave the houses and only listen from outdoor, when was sung a seguiriya.

And perfectly possible, that - passing the guardia civil and hearing the cries/gritos/pena negra - they would have asked: what's going on here? gitanos speaking with the devil? - the answer could have been: oh, it's just a seguidilla.

and I also can imagine, that in the beginnings of flamenco nobody would have said: "Let's sing por buleria! .. cantanos por tonà! .." More sense makes the naming by "de la tía ..." " ... lo del cojo", " la de Ronda .." o ciertas letras.

So, what palo could it be: cold soggy day , the family awaiting the sun, round a fire, someone begins to clapp hands ... and what would it "be"?? - Poll

(that's not a romantic fantasy, 20 years before I've seen it and am sure, that this still exits)

The naming and classification of "Styles" - was a made one and a mutual process with singing in life, I imagine.

does anybody know a mention of seguiriya before Antonio Machado/Demófilo??

(pfff, family is out for watching a round leather going round and I dont have to prepare the meal - ;-))



edguerin -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 15 2014 9:30:45)

quote:

Ed...Im sorry but I also disagree with your explanation

My explanation was ambiguous. The etymological derivation from "seguidilla" is correct IMO, and yes, the dance seguidilla is as related to seguiriyas as tango to tango [;)]

So I should have written: "and there was a type of dance of that name in the pre-flamenco ages"

On his web-site Faustino Nuñez says:
quote:

En el flamenco el cante por seguiriya suele guiarse por la cuarteta de seguidilla, aunque añadiendo al tercer verso un ripio donde el heptasílabo se convierte en endecasílabo, surgiendo así la singular métrica de la estrofa sobre la que se interpretan las seguiriyas y las cabales.
Por su parte las serranas y las sevillanas se guían por el modelo tradicional, la seguidilla castellana.

And also mentions "seguidillas gitanas" [8|]



Pimientito -> RE: Siguiriya - Origin of palo and its name (Jun. 16 2014 10:12:43)

quote:

And also mentions "seguidillas gitanas"

This is the problem...the seguidillas gitanas is what we all now call Seguirillas. That
1+ 2+ 3 + a 4 + a 5 compas has nothing to do with the Pre-flamenco folk Seguidillas.
Looking at old recordings from 40s and 50s, the term seguidillas is often used when today we would call it Seguirilla.



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