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technique, technique, technique...
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Guest
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 technique, technique, technique...
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o.k, i admit it i hate technical exercises. but ive bitten the bullet and decided every day at least an hour and a half of exercises. ive decided to go with the gerardo encuentro exercises (predominatley). i started them properly today, its not actually as boring as i expected. some of the arpeggios can actually be played as music. i think the key is maybe to find a happy medium between exercises and playing something that still holds some musical interest otherwise you can end up not enjoying the guitar at all. for me this is the biggest challenge i face as a guitarist, it requires a lot of discipline to slog through exercises every day. but everytime i pick up the guitar my technique(or lack of) prevents me from playing the things i really want to play, like sicko picado etc. i guess you need to find an approach that works for you, has any one got any good tips in regards to this topic? 
thanks,
Dominic
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Date Dec. 3 2005 7:20:18
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sorin popovici
Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to Guest)
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well ....just decided not to practice for a while ...like I use to.I have some exams, and
I looked and looked to Nunez video ...and I cant believe.I believe his i,m picado speed ...but
m,a and i,a picado speed and accuracy ..that's too much.
Not to mention ...I thought I had
some arpeggios ...I'm wrong again(tired to be wrong all time).I can do pima arpeggios
fast and pimami ...but not very fast pami (especially when p and a are on the same string).
The single thing I'm satisfied is tremolo , but even there ...there are some things like
when u have to piami things 4422 .In tremolo nunez has this little run in the middle
of a tremolo 0,1,3,1 ...and u do it with p,i,a,m,i cause you're in a middle of a tremolo
section (u have to do it fast and tirando ..so that will have the sound of a tremolo).
My alzapua is pretty slow and not usable at buleria speed but here and in the rasgueados
section i'm not very ambitious.
But all this could be ok....if my left will be more relaxed.It seems like I cant do
a proper 4,3,2,1 on a single string right.This drives me crazy, I hate this exercise.
So here ...I would like some advices on streches and things like that.The problem is
in my 2nd and 3rd finger .Also could be my 4th finger.Either way ....I dont know what to do
and though i stretech my fingers every day ...and it worked for a while,still..I hate it when
u feel incomfortable playing simple things.So please here I need help.
Ok , for the right hand ...I have these patterns for picado .Like scales on thirds ...
c,d,e d,e,f e,f,g (back an fourth) etc. Second scales with four notes c,d,e,f d,e,f,g
e,f,g,a .. etc.Now, the one in thirds ... I accentuate Ta,ta,ta (to sound right...u'll find
that because the cycle is a number of odd beats(3 is an odd number) ,u are always
forced to accentuate one beat with i and the next beat with m.This is good, cause
it will train your right hand to hit (like nunez said) the notes ..with the same force).
The four notes pattern u can accentuate in many ways ..so accentuate where u need to.
Expand to quintuplets, 7-tuplets....(yeah ...I know ,this is super hard ..cause u cant play
in position ...u have to move a little (I dont do 5-tuplets,or 7.. but it's evident u can expand )).
Now, I dont do this very well...but another good one is this...combine all these patterns ..using metronome...switch between triplets (c,d,e...etc) to 16th (c,d,e,f).
Next , u can actually aply all this to whatever scale u want ..maybe u hate C major.
So find a diminished scale...or a whole tone scale ,or a minor one.And move these
exercises through the neck a little.(I have so many advices...but I'm ashamed to
admit that I mostly practice C dim and C major.I stole the fingerings from a Joe Pass
book, cause he has fingerings like in flamenco .I mean I observed that in Flamenco
u do c ,d,e on a single string with 1,3,4 fingers and not with 1,2,4 like people do in rock).
Hope this helps for picado ...and dont forget I need much advices on my problems
with the left hand fingers 2,3 (and 4 I believe).Some good stretches.I know i need it
I have this example for demonstrating why I need it.I'm friend with a guy that plays
with a pick but sometime ago he tried fingerstyle.He tried H.Villa Lobos etude no.1
(the guy is a speed picker...really really frightening ..kind of like Todd).If u know
HVL etude no.1 there are some legatos in that piece 11h12 on high e string,11h12 on
b string,11h12 on g string.Now, in the score says ...do this with finger 1 and 2.Well
he does that at super speed with the fingers 3 and 4.Now,try it ...eventually learn that
phrase from that piece.Though it's a simple example ...I find it hard to do it with 3 and 4
fingers.Any ideas?
Now, I forgot to say.But my 2nd question is this? when I do scales with m,a ....what shall
I do with the index finger.Nunez has it very stucked to the m finger?This is what shall I do?
Now, as u observed I had only two questions...so please answer...I will not adress anymore
questions.I hope some of the big players here ,can answer me to these questions.
To resume 1.What shall i do to stretch better and have better 2nd ,3rd and 4th finger?
2.When doing scales with m,a what shall i do with the index finger?(many posibilities here
shall i keep on the air behind the m and a fingers, or in the air in front of m and a? Or
not keeping it in the air ,and keep it stucked to the m finger?)
Please answer or I'll need money for a shrink or smth in the near future.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 3 2005 11:52:49
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Guest
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to sorin popovici)
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Eschuchame Sorin
You will never be a flamenco soloist. Nor will 99.9% of the wannabees. The standard of the guitarists who do not make in Spain is awesome: and those who do!!!!!!!!!
However, with a lot of compas and little technique, you can accompany if you know cante or baile. Because nowadays most kids are following your regime, people who know how to accompany are few and much sought after.
Open a guitar case in Andalucia and someone will sing. If you cannot accompany a simple solea, he will walk away saying "no sabe", even if you should have the technique of Gerardo.
Keep on playing, listen to cante and try to make it to Andalucia.
Suerte
Sean
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Date Dec. 3 2005 14:13:57
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to Guest)
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An hour and a half of exercises? I have done that and it's a waste of time...unless you are also spending three hours in addition, on repertoire.
Music is not about finger movements, it's really more in the head. [As Paco de Lucia said, guitar is 99% mental]. Thus you need to listen to music--I have to agree with Sean for once--and learn to play what you hear.
It was very helpful to me to understand that the body is not a machine, or a mathematical equation.... technique exercises + TAB = virtuoso music. It's more like learning a new language. I think practicing technique is analogous to learning vocabulary. Imagine if someone wanted to learn a language, and so they just drilled themselves and worked on vocabulary. Now they go to a place where they spoke that language...how are they going to do?
Vocabulary in isolation is useless...you have to know structure and syntax as well as usage. What's more, a foreigner studying vocabulary by himself is studying wrong--the sounds of a foreign language are actually minutely but completely different from those of his language. He needs to listen to real people speaking the language, to hear the real sounds. In time, with work, he will learn how the language works and how to reproduce the sounds. In a lot of time, he will do so with accuracy and finally fluency.
I think a good program to learn flamenco or any other music is to actually learn music...simpler bits first and finally the more complex. TAB or sheet music is a tool that should be used but not abused. You need to be able to play by ear. I don't think it is possible to be a good musician, at least in this folk idiom, without being able to play anything you hear...by ear. This is highly interrelated with the recent discussion about rhythm. How can you hope to play something if you don't even understandt eh rhythm, which is the truly basic structure of it?
The elements of music must be mastered to the extent that they can be more or less instantly perceived by ear. Trust me, it's not the way I started, but if I knew then what I knew now...
_____________________________
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Dec. 3 2005 14:26:27
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rickm
Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to Guest)
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not pretenting to know anything, but what I have learned is a mirror of what has been already stated. the exercises will help somewhat, as I beleive everything helps somewhat, but unless seen in the larger context of whatever piece you are playing might even be harmful to your overall development. what works for me is to begin priactice with a piece im trying to learn, as I am forced to take it slow to memorize, figure out fingering etc, then progress to something i like to play and I might add it doesnt even have to be flamenco, it could be Randy Rhodes, but if you like it, you'll expend the effort and it will put a smile on your face. Then progress to practice where you want to go. If you are practicing a song at this point with a picado lets say and it is sticking for you, then run over that picado section slowly methodically, carefully, lets say in that drill format and then move over when it becomes better. But remeber it is an exercise to facilitate the playing of the piece. which should be the overall goal. Again, my teachers do this and it works for them. If you get stuck on a piece, and I do, then it is probably the context of the piece that troubles you and will only be ultimately resolved until you can play that sequence in the context of the song. I hope it makes sense. Exercises and drills etc are ok, and certaily a lot of the drills etc are included in someone's song, again Ozzy and Randy Rhodes a lot of those lead runs are the excerices Rhodes practiced, but he did other stuff as well. It's like football, you cant beat basic blocking and tackling, but at some point it has to fit into the context of the game. I hope this makes sense.
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Date Dec. 3 2005 15:11:26
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Ricardo
Posts: 14824
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Eschuchame Sorin
You will never be a flamenco soloist. Nor will 99.9% of the wannabees. The standard of the guitarists who do not make in Spain is awesome: and those who do!!!!!!!!!
However, with a lot of compas and little technique, you can accompany if you know cante or baile. Because nowadays most kids are following your regime, people who know how to accompany are few and much sought after.
Open a guitar case in Andalucia and someone will sing. If you cannot accompany a simple solea, he will walk away saying "no sabe", even if you should have the technique of Gerardo.
Keep on playing, listen to cante and try to make it to Andalucia.
Suerte
Sean
Yep, unfortunately this additude is common amongst flamencos and aficionados. The reason the good players don't "make it" in Spain is because they don't really care about solo guitar in Spain, they don't respect it. It is a shame really. So up and comming guitarists that work hard on the instrument to play good, amazing virtuosos, get a harsh "hazing", learning the simple chords for the cante by getting put down. They are "expected" to just know it, not learn or practice it. Same with accompanying dance in a lot of cases. Once the standards are learned, and you can hold your own and play for a singer without him shaking his head at your one bad tono or wrong timed chord, THEN you get "respect". You can find the same BS in some other music styles where you need to know "standards" or else your not "in".
In anycase, I have met plenty of guitarists who go on and on about how it is all about the "cante" and think they have devoted their lives to playing for it, but can't really do it well. I have met aficionados who go on and on about how they listen to Camaron all day, but they don't know a granaina from a taranto. My point is, don't kid yourself into thinking that the GOOD accompanists in Spain are not technical players that CANT pull off a decent solo. They are ALL good. True some YOUNG hot shot's don't know all the cante, but they can learn so easy if they can play good already. All it takes is some time spent with a well rounded singer. Doesn't even have to be in Spain, necessarily. But the GOOD accompanists can work with any singer and that is because of the experience they get in Spain with many different styles and personalities.
Likewise I have met some accompanists that only know one or two falsetas, but honestly, they can "do the job" of accompaniment, but they are not exceptional. Yet they boast that they are not "soloistas", they only play for cante. Juan Habichuela, Paco Cepero, Moraito, Parrilla, Tomatito, etc, they are the best for the cante IMO, and yes they can do amazing virtuoso solos too. It is not coincidence.
Keep working Sorin, you dont' have to be a working professional accompanist to enjoy flamenco guitar. But when and if you want to do it, it just takes time and experience. Take the "hazings" that come along in stride like any freshman. It is all good amigo. Use the metronome. 
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 3 2005 22:25:42
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to koella)
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Koella,
It's just that Sean's post just brought back a horrible memory for me...
I was once on holiday in Malaga, when late one night I heard some Flamenco singing and clapping coming from the bar across the road from the Hotel.
So I took my guitar and went over.
I noticed there was no guitarist, but folk were just taking turns singing while others clapped or rapped on the table.
They asked me to play something, so I tuned up and played my best piece...a Tarantas.
Everybody cheered and clapped and patted me on the back and a copa de fino was placed in front of me.
They encouraged me to play something else, so I started a Soleares.
Then (to my horror) someone started singing, with great passion and torment.
Of course, having no knowledge of accompaniment, I was all over the place.
I heard someone to the side of me say "Bah.. El chico no sabe na'..." (The kid knows nothing).
Eventually I just ground to a halt and the singer just carried on by himself.
One of the guys came up and asked if he could borrow my guitar.
It was obvious he was no guitarist, as he had to look where he was placing his fingers one by one on the strings when changing chords, most of which he played with three fingers only, but ended up accompanying for the rest of the night and I clapped along feeling like an idiot! 
That was a long time ago, and now I've taken up the guitar again, I realise that it's too late at my age to go to Spain and learn the fundamentals.
But does that mean I have to deny myself the pleasure of playing around with Flamenco guitar?
Nah!....I've no abition to do anything professional with the guitar, I simply enjoy trying to pick up stuff here and there and get a great sense of achievement when I finally "crack" a difficult piece of technique!
Also it makes me appreciate other guitarists much more than if I were a non-player.
For those "serious" guitarists who don't accompany, I don't see any problem with doing Flamenco solo compositions as part of their repertoire. No problem at all....but I think if I were younger and single and wanted to play Flamenco seriously, I'd go to accompaniment classes in Spain.
Definitely.
Even if you have no real interest in cante, a basic knowledge of accompaniment can only increase your overall knowledge of Flamenco and improve your compositional skills....as well as saving you from embarrassing incidents like the one I described.
cheers
Ron
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Date Dec. 4 2005 12:39:36
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Guest
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Ricardo
The internet is a great place for misunderstandings. I would never denigrate the great Spanish players, all of whom are great accompanists: Paco, Vicente, Gerardo etc.
I merely wished to point out that people who do not know the ambiente and reach a high level by studying these masters, still lack a very fundamental component of toque.
I am now fed up with these misunderstandings and as such, this is my last post on any subject.
Suerte y adios a todos
Sean
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Date Dec. 4 2005 15:23:10
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Ryan002
Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to Guest)
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Perhaps painters know something musicians don't. They learned long ago that the surroundings are as much a part of the art as the painting itself.
The greatest failing of the highly technical musician is not, as some would believe, a lack of feel or sincerity. The failing is the inability to respect the role of the audience. Music, as the final bastion of dying modernism, is ultimately about establishing connections. Both listener and speaker must co-operate to create understanding and meaning. Successful musicians tend to discover this early: If as a musician, you want your music to open its mouth and speak, you must first learn to shut yours.
I'm not being rude of course. I'm trying to highlight the fact that musicans who rely heavily on technical mastery tend to heap scorn on an audience that (usually) prefers accessible simplicity (as in simple, clear and concise, NOT as in "childish" or "immature") to incomprehensible complexity. Often, technical musicians feel they are "the source" or "the orignator" of the art that is happening. Anyone who disagrees merely does not "understand". Think of the musician who cannot comprehend why the audience would prefer "easy" pieces that anyone can do over ingeniously complicated counterparts.
Since Flamenco is essentially a form of folk music, authority in determing the value of the music, in determinging whether the musician in question "knows nothing", is more heavily vested in the audience. If the music is not "happening" it is the fault of the musician.
Contrast this to, say, Opera, where a member of the audience who claims not to understand the production is likely to be chastised for a lack of refinement. The fact that he or she misunderstands is not because the "musician is bad" but the person in question is "ignorant".
With this said, we all KNOW that it is wrong to dismiss those who seek technical mastery. If all interpretation is in the hands of the audience, then the musician becomes irrelevant. It becomes a tyranny of the majority where Atomic Kitten tramples over the London Symphony Orchestra.
I say make clear the nature and role of context. Spread consciousness, not only amongst oursleves by repeated reminders but to everyone we speak to about music (especially all you teachers out there!) that it is situation, combination of place, time, zeitgeist, that determines music. It is musician, audience, environment, everything "in that moment" when it is played that is the music. Not the score alone, not the musician alone, not the instrument alone, not the history of the era alone. Not any one factor of the formula can be isolated from the other without losing all meaning. It is a network and an interaction of these things, in a single moment that can never be repeated, that consitutes music. This is the spontaneous occurance that allows a song to have meaning beyond the person that composed it.
Let the master of tehncique be the musician to musicians, and the master of communication be the musician to the common man.
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Date Dec. 4 2005 16:32:51
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to Guest)
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Ron, same thing happened to me, only not in Spain- a Spaniard started singing a fandango while I was doing a solo gig in a Spanish restaurant, and even though I later learned he was a poor singer with little compas, I learned then and there that I was missing a huge chunk of what I needed to know. There was no other guitarist to rescue me, so I had to suffer through the fandango. It was probably five tough years after that before I got a gig playing in a cuadro, and it was a satisfying moment. As Ricardo says, there is no organized method, and you are simply expected to know how to do it.
Koella, it's not the lauguage you need to know, it's the cante melodies and the traditional chords that go with them. But, it is really helpful to at least be able to understand when the guy tells you to put the capo on 2 and play por medio
Ron, as well as you do play, I think you should hunt out a dance class and go down there and have some fun-they will certainly appreciate your playing and I'd bet you'd enjoy it as well.
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Date Dec. 5 2005 17:50:03
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: technique, technique, technique... (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
I think you should hunt out a dance class and go down there and have some fun-they will certainly appreciate your playing and I'd bet you'd enjoy it as well.
Thanks Mark,
Though the only "serious" dance schools here (apart from keep fit and line-dancing), is traditional Highland dance!
Might be quite "arty" to put on a show of Highland dance with Bulerias accompaniment! LOL!
Yeah, what I said before is true and you have only underlined it...
If you play Flamenco guitar professionally, or semi-pro, sooner or later you are going to come into contact with Spanish folk, be it at a gig, a restaurant, a party or a wedding...
where someone, well lubricated on tinto and inspired, is gonna stand up and demonstrate "el arte" at full volume.
And everyone will look to you to support him!
Sean is right....Folk from Andalucia just assume that if you can play all those fancy chords with a good technique, then obviously accompanying will be nothing to you.
Beginner's stuff.. just a few chords here and there! LOL!
So I suppose if I were a "serious" player, then rather than have this "haunt" me all my professional life, like some skeleton in the cupboard, I'd just rather grab the bull by the horns, go to Spain and learn at least some basics, so I could make an acceptably respectable go of it, rather than shrugging my shoulders and grinning like an idiot and wishing I was elsewhere.
Besides...I'm sure it would be a very enjoyable experience!
cheers
Ron
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Date Dec. 5 2005 19:49:01
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