Replacing bridge on a shellac finished guitar

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tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

Replacing bridge on a shellac finish...

Is it possible to change the bridge on a shellac finished guitar so well that it would look original? And what's the estimated price a luthier would charge for such a job?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 13:19:05

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

Yes it is possible. prices vary alot between each and every guitar maker so an estimate is nearly impossible. Also more info would be needed, such as would you want the luthier to make a new bridge or would you be providing the new one?

If I were to make the bridge, french polish the bridge remove the old one and put the new one on plus touch up any of the old finish I would charge about £250. providing you didn't want the old bridge back

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 14:16:00

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

Yes it is possible. prices vary alot between each and every guitar maker so an estimate is nearly impossible. Also more info would be needed, such as would you want the luthier to make a new bridge or would you be providing the new one?

If I were to make the bridge, french polish the bridge remove the old one and put the new one on plus touch up any of the old finish I would charge about £250. providing you didn't want the old bridge back

It would be just replacing the old with a new one. 250 pounds is a very reasonable price I think

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 19:36:13

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

Is there a risk of damaging the top, even if made by a professional, while removing the old bridge? I suppose there is some heating included to get the glue loose?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 14:39:20

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

I would simply plane the old bridge off. If it's not needed any more then it's not that much time really. That's the best way of avoiding damage. Otherwise you could probably add another £50-£100 for the extra time spent painstakingly preserving both the old bridge and soundboard.

The main cost would come from making the new bridge and polishing it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 18:36:12

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

If you plane it off will there be left some of the original rosewood or is it possible to plane it off all the way without damaging the finish/top? thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 19:15:16

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

You can also plane it almost off, leave a little less than a milimeter and heat it and remove it. Take care around the center seam. This way its easyer to get it warm enough without getting it to warm.
Also remember that if the old bridge was glued with some plastic glue (pva or titebond), all the glue must be removed before gluing the new bridge on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 8:07:32

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

I would plane most of it off perhaps down to .5mm then take the rest away with my chisel. Then of course as Anders says remove the rest of the glue with some scrapers and abrasives.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 8:50:22

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders, perhaps you are right that all the glue must be removed--to make the surface smooth and level. But Titebond glue sticks well to dried Titebond glue, so adhesion wouldn't be a problem if some (Titebond) glue was left.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2013 13:49:11

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

But Titebond glue sticks well to dried Titebond glue, so adhesion wouldn't be a problem if some (Titebond) glue was left.

are you sure about that? Its not what I´ve been taught.
I was taught that only hot hide glue has a 100% adhesion on hot hide glue rests. Mainly because it melts the old glue.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2013 15:53:08

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

But Titebond glue sticks well to dried Titebond glue, so adhesion wouldn't be a problem if some (Titebond) glue was left.

are you sure about that? Its not what I´ve been taught.
I was taught that only hot hide glue has a 100% adhesion on hot hide glue rests. Mainly because it melts the old glue.

My experience is the same as Ethan's.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2013 16:06:19

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

are you sure about that?

Yes. As sure as I am about anything. (Uh, oh, what does he mean by that?

)

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2013 18:15:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

Ok, thats good to know. But are you really sure. I mean really REALY sure.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2013 8:00:02

Wayne Brown

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

I've always heard that hide glue is the only glue that adheres to itself.
So, now you've got me thinking. I'll go into the shop today and set up a test (just for
curiosity). I'll post back later.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2013 15:17:50

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

I have used titebond to glue back to old titebond and its worked nicely. I couldn't however tell you if it was 100% strength though. I didn't want to break something I had just fixed to find out :).

I would clean away as much of the old glue as possible just because that is good practice whether I was using hise glue titebond or what ever.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2013 8:42:34

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

About 6 years ago, my then 13 year old son had to do a science research project for school.
I got him to do it on the widely held belief that titebond will not stick to dried titebond.
We assembled 8 test pieces with a lap joint. 4 of them were broken apart after 5 minutes, allowed to dry overnight and then reglued and clamped with no further surface preparation.
After curing for a day the samples were loaded in a uniform manner with a bucket filled with sand until failure, then weighed.\
There was some variation but no uniform loss of strength attributable to the regluing.
Make of this what you will.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2013 1:50:51

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Ok, thats good to know. But are you really sure. I mean really REALY sure.

Yes, I really am. All the cabinetmakers I've worked with know it and I know it from experience. I have reglued a glue-impregnated bridge onto a glue-impregnated soundboard (I had to remove it because I put it on upside down.) I'm talking about Titebond aliphatic resin glue--yellow glue--here.

I am always afraid that bridges will not be held on strongly enough, but they always have been for me. It seems impossible.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2014 6:00:56

Wayne Brown

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Well, here is my conclusion! Since this was not a lab test, I used only one sample and prepared it in the same manner as Jeff Highland's son.
The material that I used was 3/4" plywood (not a good choice). I laid the sample between two boards and stood on it. The plywood failed, but not
the glue joint......So there you have it! Titebond will stick to Titebond.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 1:14:08

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to Wayne Brown)

Sounds like a lab test to me.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 1:29:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to tele)

Wayne, Plywood can be so many different things. From rock solid construction material where the best materials have been used, to extremely lousy crap material that falls apart if you play the tin whistle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 7:32:42

Wayne Brown

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders. you are right. This plywood is nothing more than "crap" (looks good on the outside/crap on the inside). I think I'll try this again with some solid hardwood this next time.
I'll report back later.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 13:17:33

Wayne Brown

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: Replacing bridge on a shellac fi... (in reply to Wayne Brown)

OK. Tests results are in from my R&D department for test run #2 for gluing Titebond to Titebond.
This time, there were two samples using maple 3/4" x 11/2" x 10" with a 3" overlap that was previously
coated with Titebond and left to dry for two days. After being glued for two days, I applied 150 pounds weight
to the samples. One broke on the woodgrain runout but not the glue joint. The second never broke at all!
Conclusion.....Titebond will adhere to Titebond !!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2014 14:46:36