question about guitar under constant string tension

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

eg.czerny

Posts: 57
Joined: Jun. 30 2005

question about guitar under constant...

I have a 41 year old flamenco guitar that has been under full string tension most of its life. It's very light weight. The top is WRC. No cracks or warping. The top had some doming but I had that repaired a few years ago. I rarely play this guitar now. My question is would taking the tension off after all these years do more harm than good, or should I just leave well enough alone?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2012 22:12:00

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to eg.czerny)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eg.czerny

I have a 41 year old flamenco guitar that has been under full string tension most of its life. It's very light weight. The top is WRC. No cracks or warping. The top had some doming but I had that repaired a few years ago. I rarely play this guitar now. My question is would taking the tension off after all these years do more harm than good, or should I just leave well enough alone?

If you're not going to play it take the strings off. It will be in stasis until a player gets hold of it and brings it back to life.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2012 23:35:20

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to eg.czerny)

quote:

If you're not going to play it take the strings off. It will be in stasis until a player gets hold of it and brings it back to life.

Or at least slacken them. This way you wont loose the bones.

Nylon strings dont have the same problem a steel strings but its better to play safe . Steel strings actually hardens when they vibrate and then their tension gets higher. I´ve seen quite a few old mandolins and specially acoustic steel strings which were more or less left to die hanging on a wall with the strings slowly warping the soundboard and evt. pulling of the bridge.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2012 7:24:12

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to jshelton5040)

Great advice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2012 3:22:49

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to eg.czerny)

quote:

Steel strings actually hardens when they vibrate and then their tension gets higher

If you are going to complain about people being overmental, please don't make such silly statements

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2012 6:48:45

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to eg.czerny)

quote:

If you are going to complain about people being overmental, please don't make such silly statements

Thats not being mental, but a simple physical law.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2012 7:13:38

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to eg.czerny)

Sorry but no it is not, Steel may work harden,but that does not cause a stretched steel string to gain tension.
I have plenty of steel string guitars which have been under tension for many years untouched. They do not increase in pitch unless it is from temperature drop or from humidity variations affecting the timber

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2012 7:23:12

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

simple

No not simple at all.
There may be 'work hardening' and there may be 'creep' and there may well be other physical changes under tension, especially over long time periods, but I'm not convinced this would cause an increase in tension.

What we need here is a materials scientist to give a definitive answer.

_____________________________

Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2012 9:55:07

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to eg.czerny)

Among other things I used to run a Materials testing lab and do structural design in steel, timber and concrete, will that do.
45 years of owning Steel string guitars, I have never observed them to gain tension during storage and there is no metalurgical reason for them to do so

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2012 10:08:07

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to eg.czerny)

I was taught that a steel string would harden when vibrating. Was it wrong?

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2012 13:47:47

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Yes it may harden. Its called 'work hardening'.
but that's not the same as increased tension.

Tension is a force, Hardness is resistance to deformation; not the same thing.

Hope that helps make it clearer.

_____________________________

Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2012 15:26:04

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to eg.czerny)

quote:

I was taught that a steel string would harden when vibrating. Was it wrong?

Yes 'fraid so

Music wire is already hard both from composition and the process of forming it into wire.
Work hardening increases the yield strength but only takes place when you go past the point of permanant deformation or elastic limit (on Steel)
Vibration involves deformation of the string within it's elastic limit and does not create work hardening,
Where you see work hardening and it's companion, fatigue is in the places where the string is forced to change direction sharply, the saddle, nut and tuning post.

But none of these increase the tension of the string

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2012 21:39:11

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to eg.czerny)

Ok, thanks for correcting my knowledge. I will from now on stop myself making mental comments on steel strings.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2012 7:12:47

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: question about guitar under cons... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

Thanks for your input Jeff.
A bit of expertise goes a long way.

_____________________________

Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2012 7:24:26