grooves in saddle

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grooves in saddle

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at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

grooves in saddle

i tried to do a search but couldn't really find anything.

all my guitars eventually developed grooves in the saddle from the strings. how deep is too deep? does it affect anything? should i replace the saddle at some point?

i'll try to get a picture....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2012 21:16:36

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

so here's the groove from the D string. if i release the string, it "clicks" back into place.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2012 21:41:29

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

Dude.... I've never seen anything like that before. Do you change your strings really often? I've been playing my guitar for 2 years changing the basses average every 3 weeks and I have no grooves.
Very interesting. I will make you more saddles. If you can measure that one pretty precisely that would be great. I will look into harder alternatives to bone. Maybe diamond would do the trick

It also makes me curious if the grooves in the nut have become deeper.. do you get excessive buzz on the open strings?

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2012 22:04:35

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

i still have that extra saddle you gave me but i was trying to get as many miles as i can out of the one that came with the guitar. i change basses about once a month but after about two weeks, i take the basses off and reverse them. do you think that's what is doing it? oh crap.

the grooves in the nut seem to be doing okay. my guitar is getting just the right amount of buzz.

btw, i like the "flare" you shape into the slots. the strings never catch at the nut.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2012 22:13:01

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I too have grooves in my saddle. Just noticed it last string replacement. I assumed it was a "feature" by the luthier Fracisco Navaro which allowed one to adjust the action depending on the strings (normal vs. high tension). Guess not :) Seems like a cool idea though.

Is yours a bone saddle? Not sure if mine is bone or that composite who's name eludes me.

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troutie

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2012 22:59:20

mottallica

Posts: 177
Joined: Mar. 25 2012
From: Israel

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

quote:

Not sure if mine is bone or that composite who's name eludes me

graphtech?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2012 23:03:45

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to mottallica)

yep - tusq was what i was thinking of.

thanks

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troutie

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2012 23:09:19

estebanana

Posts: 9357
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

Some bone is harder than other bone. Once in while you get soft saddle material.

Is that the original saddle?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2012 23:29:04

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

I make grooves for the treble strings on purpose so that they dont slip and also to correct placement. In order to make the grooves smooth, I "sand" them with wound strings to make them round.

..but Ive never seen such deep grooves as yours. Are you using barb wire strings?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2012 23:33:48

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

It doesn't have a negative effect on the sound, unless it starts buzzing too much for you don't sweat it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 2:52:54

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

it may be the photo but the break angle of the 1st and 2nd strings looks a little flat which may be the result of the deep grooves.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 9:41:47

Samarto

Posts: 160
Joined: Mar. 21 2008

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

Soft bone is the only thing that makes sense. Black Buffalo horn tends to do this over time, but it is much softer than bone. Too high a break angle would more likely cause the problem than too low, but break angle looks fine to me on your photo. If the bone is dense and hard, then I think it would take several weeks of 24 hour days of constantly pulling the string back and forth over the saddle to make a groove like this one. Just one thing to say Antonio is

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 12:22:38

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

It might be a soft piece of bone. If the action is OK I'd say just use it until it's too low and then use the other one.
When you change your strings it's a good idea to push the loop on the saddle side of the tie block down so it's not holding the string up, but Sam is correct a higher break angle will make the groove problem worse.

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 12:44:37

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

quote:

Is yours a bone saddle? Not sure if mine is bone or that composite who's name eludes me.

yup, mine is bone. im 90% sure yours is too. i thought about getting tusq but did some research and found that some people felt it was even softer than bone.

quote:

Is that the original saddle?

it came with the guitar. and i've had it for almost a year now.

quote:

Are you using barb wire strings?

well... sometimes... when i really need that bright, clean, "sharp" tone.

quote:

It doesn't have a negative effect on the sound, unless it starts buzzing too much for you don't sweat it.

ok, that's good to know. but can the string vibrate freely if it's stuck in a crack?

quote:

it may be the photo but the break angle of the 1st and 2nd strings looks a little flat which may be the result of the deep grooves.

it's the angle. it was the only spot where i could get my phone to focus so i just took the shot.

quote:

Just one thing to say

thanks sam! i haven't heard that song in awhile. now it's going to be stuck in my head for all day.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 12:46:26

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

It might be a soft piece of bone. If the action is OK I'd say just use it until it's too low and then use the other one.
When you change your strings it's a good idea to push the loop on the saddle side of the tie block down so it's not holding the string up, but Sam is correct a higher break angle will make the groove problem worse.

okay. i think i'll go through a few more string changes before using the other one. the weird thing is i've had this happen to all my guitars so i'm wondering if it's something i'm doing.

if this keeps happening, what do you think of have an extra long saddle where i can just slide it up a bit each time i develop grooves so it doesn't just keep digging deeper and deeper in one place?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 12:52:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

This is quite normal man. Folks that are confused simply don't play and change out strings any where near as often as you do and others with this thing happening to their guitars. OR they have so many different guitars they work with the mileage is spread out.

i recommend you change it immediately. It does lower the action but if you like it, then make the new bone a hair lower then the old one. It will feel and sound the same that way. The danger if you don't is that the grooves can weaken the wound strings there and encourge them to break, and also if your bone is low already, the string can start to rub into the bridge itself.

Also, stop playing so much!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 15:28:32

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

Hi Anthony, you changed your avatar.

I'm still enjoying the FN you sold me. I guess it's your strong playing which is wearing down the saddles - keep it up!

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troutie

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 16:36:08

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to Ricardo)

thanks ricardo. im going to switch out saddles soon then.

quote:

OR they have so many different guitars they work with the mileage is spread out.

hmm....that's a good excuse for me to get more than one guitar!

quote:

Also, stop playing so much!

i haven't played all day today, the guilt is killing me!

quote:

I'm still enjoying the FN you sold me.

nice! it's a great guitar!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 20:10:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

i recommend you change it immediately. It does lower the action but if you like it, then make the new bone a hair lower then the old one. It will feel and sound the same that way. The danger if you don't is that the grooves can weaken the wound strings there and encourge them to break, and also if your bone is low already, the string can start to rub into the bridge itself.

If you like the action lower, just file the bone flat and go on. There´s still some bone to eat before you start eating the bridge.
Unless you play 5 - 8 hours a day, I have a feeling that the bone piece is poor quality.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 21:19:23

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

Its chicken bone thats for sure.

The bone chickened out on being a saddle

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2012 21:35:45

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Unless you play 5 - 8 hours a day, I have a feeling that the bone piece is poor quality.

It has happened to my other guitars as well. i'm just going to blame it on working with dancers. they're too loud and i have to play hard.

quote:

Its chicken bone thats for sure.

The bone chickened out on being a saddle

has anybody ever used human bone?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2012 2:40:12

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

Human bone will crap its slot... I mean, pants

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2012 9:20:10

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

has anybody ever used human bone?

I used a piece of Humerus once but I got a funny sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2012 14:15:24

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

Of course you get a funny sound if you use humorous

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2012 15:01:17

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

I just got the saddle in the mail from Anthony. The grooves are not as dramatic as they look in that picture. I'd guess about .25 to maybe .5 mm deep. But I'm going to make him a few more

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2012 21:04:49

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

it must have been just a weird angle in the photo. it happened to me many times before so i didn't get freaked out until everyone else did.

you should be getting the bodies in the mail soon. please use the thigh bone for the saddle. the rest can be used for broth.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2012 22:08:01

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

you should be getting the bodies in the mail soon. please use the thigh bone for the saddle. the rest can be used for broth.

LOL ... actually in addition to Spanish Royal Cypress I am now offering genuine pieces of Javier Molina's skull for saddles. I had to pay a pretty penny but the dude had a seriously hard head.. and full of duende....

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2012 23:14:16

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

Offering a FREE new service

Send me a set of strings you've been curious about and I will try, break in, evaluate, and return them to you.
I offer this for free. This is my gift to the music world.
You just pay for strings/shipping.

btw I think you need to discontinue this service

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2012 23:15:18

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: grooves in saddle (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

LOL ... actually in addition to Spanish Royal Cypress I am now offering genuine pieces of Javier Molina's skull for saddles. I had to pay a pretty penny but the dude had a seriously hard head.. and full of duende....

i will pay whatever it takes! damn the expense!