That darn picado

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That darn picado

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John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

That darn picado

So my biggest problem is picado. Any runs I try over 9 tones a second longer than three beats is a struggle - which is actually very common in any palo around 150bpm.

About a half a year ago I switched over to a-m-i picado and have really made a lot out of it. I've always had a good tremolo, so I figured why not. Anything that's straight I can work out for 3 fingers now. Over strings which only have two tones I leave the ring finger out so the a-m-i pattern stays the same.

Here's how I practice the scales:

Here's a nice Farruca intro from Rafael Rodriguez I like to play:

I noticed a-m-i is not as strong or as stable as the i-m and of course there are runs that are not straight and since I stopped practicing i-m at all the technique stopped working all together...

Now I'm back at it. The ease of playing i-m came back quick but the speed is the same as before. I don't really have time to spend an hour a day on picado. Any tips on how to progress would be appreciated.

Thanks!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 11:00:21

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

Very good! Thanks for sharing that! I also use 3 finger picado. Powerful technique IMO. Like hybrid-engines of modern cars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 11:06:18

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

Thanks Doit - very limiting though if it's all you can do

I've been wondering whether I should try practicing all patterns with a-m-i so I can play everything that way (like the exercizes in the Gerardo Núñez Encuentro) - seems to work better for me than the i-m...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 11:11:38

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Thanks Doit - very limiting though if it's all you can do

Then you need to work it out better. Its not limiting in combination with normal i m picado and tirando. Check out Gerardo Nunez older records.. he does it over and over. Hes technically the next generation, even today. Nobody reaches him technically. And a major point in his playing is 3 finger picado in combination with standard picado and arpegio.

Thats the next level.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 11:39:38

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: That darn picado (in reply to Doitsujin)

I'm on it! Will keep you up on how I'm doing...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 11:42:17

Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

Heres a tip I learned in music school- if you practice scales louder, it helps develop better strength, endurance, more deliberate attack, all kinds of good things.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 12:30:27

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

quote:

my biggest problem is picado

me too

my fingers move fine arpegio and tremelo, but i can't understand why not picado.

quote:

I've been wondering whether I should try practicing all patterns with a-m-i so I can play everything that way

I have been thinking about this too.

quote:

(like the exercizes in the Gerardo Núñez Encuentro)

quote:

a major point in his playing is 3 finger picado in combination with standard picado and arpegio.

am i right in thinking he uses ami , not rest stroke/apoyando? I think it seems that way in Encuentro, do you know if he uses both, or only free stroke/tirando?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 17:34:03

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: That darn picado (in reply to mark indigo)

Go for it Mark. Doit's right, it's all about how you work it out.

I just switched the fingers around and figured out such a run can work - you just have to keep away from alternating between the m and a fingers when changing strings - they can't stretch that fast. Alternating a-i or m-i works though. The Rachel Camela run:

I've been spending a half hour a day on i-m technique and couldn't get this scale over 130bpm. In 15 minutes I figured it out with a-m-i and can play it relaxed at 150bpm.

Here's another falseta from Jason where I play a-m-i too. I'm a bit off in that first compás at the end...

So I guess I'm off the i-m for good...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 17:56:12

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

That's really nice playing John, Sounds great! A good friend of mine also likes to use ami picado for the faster runs. Thanks for sharing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 20:22:50

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

Yeah the picado problem that I also suffer from , I.M. ony goes up to a certain speed with me , but I remembered talking to a flamenco player in Spain about his picado , the was fantastic , and he said its mainly I,M but his third finger gets thrown in there sometimes but even he is not sure when..
so I do that now , a lot of I. M , but the A goes in I think when I'm going to change string,
I do this to make it more natural for myself as I noticed it's difficult for me to stop using my third finger, if fact A,I , and M, I are nearly the same for me...

However I'm talking at a lower level of playing for myself having seen you vid examples.
I still have lot of trouble speeding up my tremelo and I was wondering if any of this has anything to do with my M finger being a lot longer than the others , and comparing hands , it seems we are not all created equal after all .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 20:45:03

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: That darn picado (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

in fact A,I , and M, I are nearly the same for me..

my A-I Picado is way better than M-I .. and I never practice scales with A-I , I just practice picados and scales with M-I but still A-I always way too faster

this case is really drivin me crazy like if my I-M are cursed

sigh

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 20:49:28

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

Sounding good John! I dont think you have much to worry about. Looks like its working great for you.

OLE!

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 22:46:36

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: That darn picado (in reply to ToddK)

excellent stuff John ...it seems to work great for you amigo...does it feel secure for you ?

i practice with all the fingers combination's...but never really tried the 3 finger ... i should incorporate it in my practices at least...dont know if i am gain to try it at any gig..but u seem to have great results with it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 4:26:21

CarloJuan

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: That darn picado (in reply to Chiste de Gales)

quote:

all kinds of good things.

LOL. Can it give me beer?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 5:46:30

CarloJuan

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: That darn picado (in reply to Elie)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkElieDraven

quote:

in fact A,I , and M, I are nearly the same for me..

my A-I Picado is way better than M-I .. and I never practice scales with A-I , I just practice picados and scales with M-I but still A-I always way too faster this case is really drivin me crazy like if my I-M are cursed
sigh

I actually have the same issue. i used to have good ease with my i-m and sooner i realized my i-a is even faster.

I think the case is because m is longer than i, and that i and a finger are relatively the same length.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 5:48:34

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

quote:

I actually have the same issue. i used to have good ease with my i-m and sooner i realized my i-a is even faster.

I think the case is because m is longer than i, and that i and a finger are relatively the same length.

Yes strange ..... does this cause any problems with tremelo? At the moment I dont force it I just use M.I and let the A throw in whenever it wants , like my friend in spain..
Maybe we should investigate finger lengh and see if the better players have a more even hand, finger lengh , cos if not I dont have an excuse anymore..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 9:31:26

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

quote:

does this cause any problems with tremelo?

actually it doesn't cause me any problems in contrast my tremelo is strong and I play it easily
I usually mix between A-I and M-I in my playing (ex . chicuelo's taranto por tango)
but overall still A-I beats M-I
hmmm maybe each one of us has different hands so fingers work in a unique way

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 9:50:57

CarloJuan

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

i remember a saying of Dr. Farias, a doctor who helps musicians with injuries like focal dystonia,

"The appropriate technique in the inappropriate person is the inappropriate technique. In some cases, the inappropriate technique in the appropriate person is the appropriate technique."

I'm not saying not all of us can do picado, ALL OF US CAN. God is so good he wouldn't deprive us of something we really need as a musician.

If you take a look at Vicente, his tip joints collapse, and that is not an appropriate technique. But it works for him, works for him SO well...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 10:26:27

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

quote:

hmmm maybe each one of us has different hands so fingers work in a unique way

You may be right , but your gonna shoot my excuse away, which leaves me with only that I cant do tremelo or picado well 'cos I'm just a really bad flamenco player
D'oh
With trem and I put my fingers at 90 deg to the strings means I have to curl the M finger up a lot more to make the nails in a straight line , so it works different to the other 2..result an uneven tremelo...

i know what your gonna say ... excuses ..right ?
gimme a break here. i'm blaming my hand , genetics , my guitar....maybe the seat is at the wrong height....thats it ..
Oh alright I give up , I'm just a crap guitarist and have to practice more ....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 10:38:14

Stu

Posts: 2546
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: That darn picado (in reply to CarloJuan)

those vids sound great john whetever you're doing it must be right!

one thing though...may be nice to see a closer view of your right hand

i havent really tried ima picado.. wanna get stronger with i,m first...and thats happening... so maybe ill try it out soon...got any tabs of the farruca and alegrias in thise vids or shall i use my eyes and ears!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 10:39:04

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: That darn picado (in reply to CarloJuan)

quote:

i and a finger are relatively the same length

I think that's a great point. This is why most guitarists play rasgueado with i-a instead of i-m. And with the i-m picado you usually have to lean one way or the other to get the i-m even, leaned inward towards the thumb I feel like I have zero leverage - I'm missing the strength of the hand. I've seen Vicente play picado with the fingers leaned away from the thumb and tried this shortly, it does feel a lot more stable but strains the wrist a bit more.

My tremolo always just worked once I had the technique down. There I lean the hand slightly direction of the thumb and let the tip joints do all the work - that's where the speed and strength come from. Not so much a problem because with three fingers you don't need as much speed or strength, you're 50% faster than with two fingers already. Same with 3-finger picado or rasgueado.

Like Rafael Cortés said once - everyone has to put the hours in and figure it out for themself. I used to judge whether to learn pieces or falsetas beased on whether there was a picado in there anywhere and how fast it was. I think with the a-m-i thing I finally found my solution...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 12:20:34

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: That darn picado (in reply to John O.)

quote:

This is why most guitarists play rasgueado with i-a instead of i-m. And with the i-m

but also this gives more separation to here the beats , like rasgueado with the thumb, little, and indice to give more separation at ah higher speed.

but yes putting the time in and figuring out what is best for yourself , , and this subject is probably one of the biggest in flamenco as hand position has such a big effect
However i myself wouldn't give advice as if my playing was like yours i would be happy..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 13:53:37

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: That darn picado (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

but also this gives more separation to here the beats , like rasgueado with the thumb, little, and indice to give more separation at ah higher speed.

Not sure if I got his exactly - what do you mean by more seperation?

My experience is that rasgueado i-m is stronger but i-a is more even. I've seen both done at breathtaking speeds, although I really only use it for triplets in Bulerias. Is that an example of what you meant?

I use a-m-i-i also for very slow Soleares where many would use i-m or i-a, spreads out better for me. For 7-8, 9-10 I often use c-a-m-i-i, c-a-m-i-i though. Gives it a nice, rounded-out sound, especially when accompanying cante.

I think there's a million variations for everything - it's good to try out a lot in any case.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 15:45:20

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: That darn picado (in reply to CarloJuan)

quote:

If you take a look at Vicente, his tip joints collapse, and that is not an appropriate technique.

that's what i used to think, but....

i recently read some hand physiology that said if you don't let the tip joints collapse (extend)

ie. you resist/tense/bend inwards (flex) at the tip joints,

this causes the finger to move outwards (extend) at the main knuckle joint (meta-carpo-phalangeal joint)....

and as you are trying to move the finger inwards (flexion) to make the stroke that is counter productive,

so now i'm not so sure that it is an inappropriate techniqe....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 17:00:52

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: That darn picado (in reply to mark indigo)

John-
To me your 'darn picado' sounds great, as does your playing overall Ole!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 20:57:46

aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: That darn picado (in reply to CarloJuan)

I've also had a (decades long) struggle deciding between im and ia. my ia is faster but im sounds better so I'm trying to change back to im. David Cerraduela told me he had gone through the same thing when he was a kid - played everything with ia until El Entri told him to persevere with im, as even though its harder for some, after enough practice the end result is better.

Paco Arriaga told me he solved most of his picado problems by starting rums with i ("el indice manda, el medio sigue"). He said that i is better behaved than m, and if m lands on the beat it tends to move more chaotically.

My last teacher Jesus Torres does everything ami - he sticks to that order no matter what string crossings he comes across. Incidentally his friend Cano has recently switched from im to ia.

I've found picado is a lot like cures for hiccups - many people have a sure fire solution but it may not be the best solution for any given person.

The saga continues ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2010 3:06:36

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: That darn picado (in reply to aloysius)

quote:

Paco Arriaga told me he solved most of his picado problems by starting rums with i ("el indice manda, el medio sigue"). He said that i is better behaved than m, and if m lands on the beat it tends to move more chaotically.

I expirience the same thing. I practice starting runs with both fingers, but starting with Index feels more controlled, or more accurately, Index always falling on the ON beat.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2010 15:03:27

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: That darn picado (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

i is better behaved than m, and if m lands on the beat it tends to move more chaotically.

quote:

starting with Index feels more controlled, or more accurately, Index always falling on the ON beat.

i find that if i play middle on the beat it is stronger and more rhythmically solid, but i can play faster and more accurately starting with index on the beat.

i recently read up some hand physiology which said middle is actually stronger, but index has a bigger range of movement, so that might explain the phenomenon.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2010 18:05:03

CarloJuan

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: That darn picado (in reply to mark indigo)

mark indigo, could you post the link to this hand physiology article?

Hope it could clarify some of the issues that continue to bother me as well

thnaks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2010 10:04:22

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: That darn picado (in reply to CarloJuan)

The stuff i've read most recently has been in Christopher Berg's book "Mastering Guitar Technique: Process and Essence" but the physiology he cites is quoted mostly from Raoul Tubiana, eminent French hand specialist, also Frank Wilson.

I am in process with this stuff, I really want to read up more of the primary sources etc.

Will try to upload the relevant pages.

page 12 here, where he starts a discussion of the different views on use of the tip joints