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Guest
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 RE: Tanguillos (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Aquellos duros antiguos
que tanto en Cádiz
dieron que hablar,
que se encontraba la gente
en la orillita del mar,
fue la cosa más graciosa
que en mi vida he visto yo.
Those tough ones
Who in Cádiz were
So talked about
That people met
By the seaside
Was the funniest thing
I’ve ever seen in my life.
A duro is/was 5 pesetas. This letra refers to a famous and real event in Cádiz when word spread that money from a shipwreck had been washed up on the beach, leading to a gold fever style rush. So the letra translates roughly:
Those old duros which caused such a sensation in Cádiz, when everyone could be found on the beach, was the funniest thing I´ve ever seen in my life.
The rest of the letra is even more humorous and even more untranslatable 
Suerte
Sean
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 15 2007 10:23:43
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Tanguillos (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: romerito
quote:
Anyone that is a percussionist that reads meters and feels synchopation well, would never suggest 3/4 for Tanguillos, nor 12/8 for bulerias. The math works but the feeling does not.
With all due respect, I beg to differ.
The most important thing to remember is that many palos are polyrhythmic.
If you choose to discount or ignore 3/4 as a possible time that is OK but don't present it as fact, especially using another instrument (percussion) to support your argument.
There are many people who believe that due to the matices a 3/4 time signature is played or implied.
The math and the feeling work.
Polyrhythmic sure. Polymetric might happen in flamenco too sometimes. But stripped down to the base I think it is important to not confuse synchopation with a brand new take on the meter. I use percussionISTS to support my point because they are typically more adept at reading meters and focus on the feeling that is implied by a time signature vs what interesting polyrhythmic things might be going on with the subdivisions (compared to guitar players I mean, who often do weird things with transcriptions interms of meter). If we all lock in to only the head beat of Tanguillo, sure you can feel 3/4 and I can feel 6/8 and we always will be together.
But IMO it is REAL important to understand the up beats feeling because that is where everything is happening in the music. If you feel a quater note as the beat, but I feel the dotted quater as the beat, even though the 8ths are even, we are not feeling the same groove. And again shifiting into the 2/4 is going to feel really weird if you have to do it and you were feeling 3/4 instead of 6/8 earlier. You CAN do it that way, but is just...wrong, I don't know any other way to say it. And harder than it should be also.
Look man, in bulerias you can do those ami arps that are synchopated against the palmas, but keep going and change the palmas so it feels like they were triplets, then BAM you are doing tangos. But if you dont' don't change the palmas, you are not changing meter. If you do it as a solo with no palmas, but YOU and you alone change into triplets por tangos, simply by feeling it that way, you ARE changing the meter also.
And that is the point I am trying to make. If you change meter THAT way (as implied by imposing 3/4 Tanguillo) you are changing the fundamental base of the rhythm so it is no longer the rhythm you started with. And sure you CAN do that. But the point is once you change meter that way, you no longer have the same compas, even though the math is the same. Feeling and math are not the same things.
In bulerias there are times you will see folks taping the foot different from one another, or a change of the foot tap. Those are meter changes for sure, and yeah one guy feels one meter and the other guy a different meter and it is fine. But for rumba/tangos/tientos/tanguillo, no. The palmas and beat are not flexable the same way. Tanguillo is especially important because if you lose the two beat when doing triplet feel, then you lose the coolness of the up beat accent. I becomes ON the beat and no longer relates to tangos. Just think about this. You can play a fandango falseta at about the same speed as Tanguillo, but why is it that they feel different? (Ignoring any strumming of compas). Same goes for Solea por bulerias falseta. You could do a falseta of fandango in Solea por bulerias without changing the feeling much, but put it in Tanguillo it is like a different world.
Well I could go on forever say the same boring stuff, but you get what I mean I hope.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 17 2007 3:35:55
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veet
Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.
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RE: Tanguillos (in reply to Guest)
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It's 6/8 on top of 4/4. Accents on 2 and 4 of the 4/4. The polyrhythm drives it, sounds bumpy, like a camshaft if that makes any sense. Fun Fun Fun palo.
here's the rest of the letra, with my translation-
y alli fue medio Cadiz con espiochas
estaba mi suegra la pobrecita ya medio chocha
con las unas y el pelo la vi escarbar
cuatro dias seguidos sin descansar
y estaba la playa igual que una feria
valgame San Cleto lo que es la miseria
algunos cogieron ma de ochenta duro
sin embargo otros no vieron ninguno
mi suegra como ya dije estaba alli una semana
escarbando por la noche, de dia y por la manana
perdio las unas y el pelo, aunque bien poco tenia
y en el patio de las malvas esta escarbando desde aquel dia
and there was half of Cadiz, with pickaxes
and my mother in law, poor thing already half nuts
with her nails and her hair, I saw her scratching
four days in a row, without rest
and the beach was like a feria
bless me San Cleto, what misery
some got more than eighty duros
nonetheless others never saw one
my mother-in-law like I said,
was there a whole week
Digging by night, by day and in the morning
she lost her nails and her hair, what little she had to begin with
and in the daisy garden she's been digging since that day (bis)
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 17 2007 21:32:38
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Tanguillos (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: romerito
That was a much more informative post.
After reading it your ideas seem much more lucid.
However, there are some ideas that cannot be explained using 2/4, 6/8, or 4/4.
I don't think it is wrong.
Mind sharing some Tanguillos with us...other than Gerardo's.
I really think the "ideas " you mean that can't be explained by 6/8 are just synchopation. But maybe it would be best if you could get a snippet of an example you think is 3/4...that would be easier. I mean I can make a vid tapping my foot and explaining what I mean about the feel and play examples of the same music as 2/4 vs 6/8, but you could still just simply say what I play in 6/8 is 3/4. But if you think a passage is 3/4, and I can actually learn it, then I could show how to feel in proper in 6/8 and even 2/4.
quote:
t's 6/8 on top of 4/4. Accents on 2 and 4 of the 4/4. The polyrhythm drives it, sounds bumpy, like a camshaft if that makes any sense.
yeah I agree with that, and add that the accent on 4 would be stronger than 2. I have no probs with 4/4. But the problem is the way 6/8 fits over it. For me YOUR 4/4, accenting 2 and 4, your foot falls on 1 and 3. That is kind of fast. I prefer 2/4, where you accent the "&'s", and the foot is on 1 and 2. So twice as slow. that way you simply have 2 beats and can mess with the division and the placement of the "&'s" so you have the triplet feel of 6/8. So simply put, Tanguillo SHOULD be felt as 2 beats, yet you play with the subdivisions and contras.
OK I will make a vid sometime soon.
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 18 2007 17:41:43
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Guest
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RE: Tanguillos (in reply to veet)
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Good translation Veet.
But "El Patio de la malvas" is what they called the cemetery in those days 
Suerte
Sean
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 18 2007 21:23:17
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