Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Hey guys, new here...I'm loving this forum already!!
I'm an experienced guitar player of about 18 years. I just recently signed up for classical/flamenco guitar lessons....my teacher teaches both!
I've been practicing the stuff my teacher has been telling me to work on, but I have also been attempting to learn some stuff on my own as well....
As far as flamenco goes, I know that I love the sound...but I know nothing about RH technique, and know no 'flamenco chords'...I figured that it would be quite some time before I started playing pieces....however, after reading a reply to this thread:
I was very happy to hear that it is suggested that a beginner learns to improvise first before learning pieces. In fact, all my life I have focused mostly on improvisation, so that is awesome to hear!!!
Now, assuming I want to jump ahead of my teacher's planned course (which I'm going to do anyway ), what do you suggest I do for learning to improvise with this awesome sounding style? Learn a few RH techniques online and a few flamenco chords, and go from there?
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
it's not that simple...in order to be able to "improvise", you have to know the forms by heart, the guitar parts and preferably also what a singer would do... there is really no improvisation in flamenco - not the way you do it in blues or rock...the nice bits that are usually played between rhythm parts are called falsetas...in each palo (form) you learn several of them and play them in between verses for cante (singing) or baile (dance) or you put them together and construct a guitar only piece...but it's not improvisation because these are all pre-constructed, they are usually too complex to be able to improvise...
there are many debates about this, but you can improvise in a rumba...think of Paco de Lucía's Entre Dos Aguas, and some other pieces...many argue that rumbas aren't even flamenco and many serious flamenco artists aren't very fond of the palo...there's a chord progression and you can improvise scales on them...but very few pieces out there capture the real flamenco feeling so be careful not to mistake them...
if you're serious about your desire to play flamenco, be prepared to re-learn guitar playing - flamenco guitar is almost like a completely new instrument, your right hand will have to adapt to it, the techniques are unlike any other style...and to be at least decent in those techniques, it takes months and years of practice...so before any improvising, learn the compás (rhythm) of the different forms, their basic chord progressions and right hand technique, and some easier falsetas... also it'd be a good idea to listen to and watch as much flamenco as you can, if you're serious about this, you won't listen to much else in the future!
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
you can learn it by yourself but having a teacher will help you through the beginner's stage quicker, you won't make mistakes that'd be difficult to iron out later...when you start to feel confident in the basics of the styles and techniques, i'd very much recommend that you find a dance class to play for, it helps enormously! also there's so much information on this forum you can use...and if you upload your stuff you'll get a lot of encouragement and some constructive criticism...i know my playing improved a lot just by preparing for the foro challenges...
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
you can do a search, but i don't remember anyone asking about an order...
personally i'd advise you to start with the thumb rest stroke and the 3 finger rasgueados (ami, then amii)
for example you could try to play these soleá falsetas on Norman Kliman's site, you don't need advanced technique to play these (but you'll need to be quite advanced to make them sound really cool! :))
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
brihead301: I'm in the same boat as you! I have played guitar for 35 years and I almost feel like a beginner again now that I am learning Flamenco. I just had my first lesson with a teacher yesterday. The last formal lesson that I have had was when I was 19; that was 24 years ago!
quote:
also it'd be a good idea to listen to and watch as much flamenco as you can, if you're serious about this, you won't listen to much else in the future!
So true! I accidentally stumbled on Flamenco music almost 2 years ago, and it has grabbed ahold of me and won't let go! Flamenco is like an addiction to me. My iPod is continuously at my side, and if my earbuds aren't in my ears they are draped around my neck. I listen to Flamenco every chance I get. When I'm not listening to it, I'm thinking about it and wishing I could. I like many genres of music and I have a home studio where I engineer and produce Bluegrass cd's for a couple of local groups. It is difficult now for me to spend an entire day listening to Bluegrass and when I put on some Flamenco after the session is over my ears feel like they're going "Aaahhhhhhh!"
Anyway, good luck to you in your endeavors! I'm off to practice my lesson now.
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
Thanks for the suggested starting points! I will work on them tonight when I get to playing my guitar!
I agree, I have loved this sound for a very long time, but I just never knew what it was. I happened to be listening to an interview on Sirus radio one time with the guitarist of Soulfly, and he was talking about Flamenco guitar....then I started listening to the stuff he was playing, and I was immediately taken in by it.
I had never been able to reproduce that sound, but then again, I never really knew that there was so much RH technique involved either....I was trying to do it with a pick and harmonic minor scales!
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
quote:
ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ there is really no improvisation in flamenco - not the way you do it in blues or rock...the nice bits that are usually played between rhythm parts are called falsetas...in each palo (form) you learn several of them and play them in between verses for cante (singing) or baile (dance) or you put them together and construct a guitar only piece...but it's not improvisation because these are all pre-constructed, they are usually too complex to be able to improvise...
I was under the same impression just a couple of weeks ago, but some of the folks out here in Spain have straightened me out on it. Apparently it's very common for the local flamencos to improvise falsetas when recording - Ricardo or Pimientito, for example, could probably tell you about how Gerardo improvises a lot of the falsetas he teaches at Sanlúcar as he's teaching them, or how he has to study his own (largely improvised) material after an album comes out so he can tour with it. I've only just learned about this though so I'm sure there are plenty of people here who could be a lot more informative but yeah, improvisation is actually quite common in flamenco.
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to Adam)
quote:
Apparently it's very common for the local flamencos to improvise falsetas when recording
Well, I doubt if they "improvise" or just make original stuff up on the spot.
What is more common is to "feel" a particular falseta in a certain way at the time and modify it or extend/contract it or change the phrasing etc.
Remember, complete pieces are composed of an arrangement of falsetas, each of which could stand on their own and just mixed to please your mood/taste at the time.
This is the beauty of Flamenco as compared to Classical.
Much more like Blues or Jazz in that respect.
Falsetas can also be broken down even further, to beginnings, middles and endings...so it's possible to change, say the ending of a particular falseta and replace it with the ending of another falseta...both of which you already know.
(Obviously, to do this "on the fly", requires considerable experience and ease with the compás.)
But, yes, you are right...
Flamenco guitarists don't play from a script, but continually find "better" ways of doing things as they go along.
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
You need to state clearly what impro is... a) choosing the "right" falseta for the right mood b) playing a pre-composed falsta a bit differently than usual c) composing something completely new which has never been composed before and which does not sound like anything else.
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to XXX)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
You need to state clearly what impro is... a) choosing the "right" falseta for the right mood b) playing a pre-composed falsta a bit differently than usual c) composing something completely new which has never been composed before and which does not sound like anything else.
My impression was that it's common here for good players to compose actual new material on the spot (as with any improvisation, of course, old ideas factor into it somewhat), but as I said I'll leave it to the locals to back that up! I just heard about this recently and am pretty interested to know more myself.
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to Adam)
Hmmm..
I kinda doubt it myself.
I can't really see ANYONE having the confidence to walk into a Recording Studio with a blank sheet, sit down and give the Engineer the nod...and just make stuff up.
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to Ron.M)
Just think of blues. You have 12 bars and a key and know where the chord changes come. You have a large collection of licks and melodies using the pentatonic scale that underline certain chord changes in a certain way. An experienced blues player can improvize a solo which sounds authentic and you probably wouldn't notice he improvized it. Now obviously "Cliffs of Dover" by Eric Johnson cannot be improvized, that's a different story.
Same in flamenco. If you know the letras to a palo then you know the chord changes, the melodic possibilities and if you've learned enough falsetas then you know how to get there with picado, alzapua, arpeggio etc. This is exactly the thing you can practice when playing for dance classes and some great ideas for falsetas can come from it. Not a good idea to do in a studio though. I don't think Paco improvized La Barrossa in the studio
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
Improvisation happens in flamenco in different ways. There is the true pull it out of your butt type improv where you create on the fly. That happens both in compas or libre. Especially if you play for baile a lot, and you need to make some music that fits a choreography nicer then any set falsetas you might have. In that case, players often need to record their improvisations so that they can remember what they did and set it in stone for live shows.
But after all this could happen in a juerga, and often set falsetas start out this way and evolve into something more concrete. This can happen with chord progressions too. Progressions can pop out in new funky ways on the fly so long as you keep the compas and cadence or resolution at the end. Again this will happen more for baile accomp then just for singers, where you don't want to be tossing out weird chords for a singer.
Then you have the theme and variation idea where you have a traditional theme, such as many famous solea themes, that you do funky or weird variations on, or just fiddle with RH technique so the left hand is doing the normal thing, but the RH makes it sound "new". In that sense the left hand can stick to formulas and the RH can improvise in almost infinate variety of ways. Changing up arp patterns for example...
Then you have the set falseta that you can chop the head or tail off and insert a new thing or very old thing as you please. Make a frankenstein of sorts out of a "falseta".
Then you have the idea of only using set falsetas, but mixing up the order as you see fit. That is the most common and "safe" way to improvise in flamenco. Organizing falsetas into an unchanging format I would not consider improvising at all. I call it arranging. A good 50% of flamenco guitar solo or instrumental "pieces" are constructed this way.
Finally you have the concept of a chord progression that repeats over which you can do variations or improvise melodically in a "jazz way". Not just rumba can have this, any palo can actually.
What I remember being very revealing years ago was Gerardo showing us a concept for composing. He took 'grips' or chord positions mainly, and after playing through them in compas of solea por bulerias, he proceeded to demonstrate variations on those grips by doing arpegios, connecting with scales, etc, basically inventing a new melody or theme on every pass. The options seemed almost limitless with just a 4 chord or postion concept.
In all cases, there is no point trying ANY of these concepts unless you have good rhythm, and specifically for flamenco, an understanding of compas such that you rarely get thrown off. So studying rhythm patterns and making them feel natural and ingrained is essential for beginners.
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
quote:
Just think of blues. You have 12 bars and a key and know where the chord changes come. You have a large collection of licks and melodies using the pentatonic scale that underline certain chord changes in a certain way. An experienced blues player can improvize a solo which sounds authentic and you probably wouldn't notice he improvized it. Now obviously "Cliffs of Dover" by Eric Johnson cannot be improvized, that's a different story.
Same in flamenco. If you know the letras to a palo then you know the chord changes, the melodic possibilities and if you've learned enough falsetas then you know how to get there with picado, alzapua, arpeggio etc. This is exactly the thing you can practice when playing for dance classes and some great ideas for falsetas can come from it. Not a good idea to do in a studio though. I don't think Paco improvized La Barrossa in the studio
Is there a sticky or something that explains what all these things mean, and the 'rules' to them. I learned that 'Rasgueados' is a type of strumming pattern, and I also know what free stroke and rest strokes are from classical guitar.
But how do you suggest going about learning the rest of this stuff. Like, how do I know what falsetas I'm able to use? What are the lethras to a palo? This is all another language to me. I understand, "chord changes" and "Licks" and "harmonic possibilities", but the flamenco terms....well, I don't know them. Is there a suggested resource?
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
quote:
Is there a sticky or something that explains what all these things mean, and the 'rules' to them. I learned that 'Rasgueados' is a type of strumming pattern, and I also know what free stroke and rest strokes are from classical guitar.
sounds like where you're at you need to learn the techniques and rhythms and forms etc. you need to learn the structures first that you will eventually (maybe) improvise within, and the techniques to do it with
learn some basic strumming/rasgueado patterns for the main palos, and a few simple falsetas and build it up from there.
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
Ok, I'm starting to understand where I need to start.
So let me get this straight, and try to translate into English. There are several Palos, which basically means a certain 'style' of rhythm.
There then are falsetas, which are "licks" which fit in between the strumming of the chords.
So, if I were to start working on some flamenco playing, I'd pick a Palo....practice the strumming pattern of each chord (rasgueado), learning how to properly accent the correct beats, and when moving from one chord to the next throw a 'falseta' in there.
For instance, I've been messing with a pretty easy beginner song "Tempestad". Each chord is strummed with the pmii (2 finger rasgueado, pmi downstrokes, and the i upstroke), and in between each chord there is a falseta.
I apologize for my newbieness, but there is so much new information here, I'm trying to get at least a starting point straightened out in my head.
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
quote:
So, if I were to start working on some flamenco playing, I'd pick a Palo....practice the strumming pattern of each chord (rasgueado), learning how to properly accent the correct beats
Yes..
quote:
and when moving from one chord to the next throw a 'falseta' in there.
No..you haven't grasped that part quite right.
So as not to over-complicate it.....
You don't really play falsetas between chord changes, but more of.. like an instrumental "break" after a few verses of the song...(very much like in 12-bar Blues where the singer will do a few verses then take an instrumental "break")
Or it could be as an intro into a song.
Of course you can play little runs and fills during the song.....just little short runs here and there to emphasise the mood of what the singer is singing about..(again as in 12-bar Blues ) these aren't really falsetas...just ornaments.
So a typical Flamenco Palo may start with the guitar playing one or more falsetas to set the rhythm and mood, then the singer comes in and the guitarist basically plays chords to accompany the song...then there may be an instrumental "break" of 1 or more falsetas...then the singer comes in with the second part of the song. There may be another instrumental "break" after that...and then the singer comes in with the 3rd part of the song..etc..etc
BTW: In Flamenco it is not considered cool at all to play falsetas or instrumental stuff WHILE the singer is singing...only maybe little fills during gaps.
Just play chords. (or he'll stab you )
Things like strumming/rasgueado/arpegios etc...following the voice.
Just simple "background" stuff, nothing flashy.
The rule is that the guitarist is there to back the singer, not to upstage or interrupt.
Choose a Palo ..say Soleares (Soleá) and have a look on YouTube and you'll get the general "shape" of the Palo and you'll see how the singer and guitarist interact. (There are many "styles" of Soleares, so they may not all sound exactly the same, but they all follow the same "compás" or rhythmic pattern.)
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
Well if you're listening to a lot of flamenco and watching videos then you've already got a good start. The vast majority of flamenco videos on YouTube are good examples of palos, falsetas, etc. - the basic flamenco form. Here's my favorite video as a random example, in the palo called bulerías:
Tomatito starts playing a falseta as an introduction, then goes into some chord strumming which is characteristic of bulerías. Then he'll play another falseta, then do a similar set of chord strumming, then another falseta, etc.
Just for detail, he begins with a falseta, then it ends and he starts doing the first set of rhythmic strumming at about 0:23 in, and then the second falseta starts at 0:29. That falseta ends at 0:40 and he immediately starts doing more chord strumming (got to keep the rhythm!). The next falseta starts at 0:54 and ends at 1:19, giving way into more strumming, and so on.
Posts: 6416
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to Adam)
Teachers will often start you with soleares (or solea) as it contains many aspects of the other palos. Alternatively, tangos is a little more accessible.
RE: So learn to improvise as a beginner? (in reply to brihead301)
Brihead 301,
I see Ramparts has posted a solo guitar video.
If you are wondering what the difference is in solo playing and playing falsetas with a singer, the answer is basically nothing.
Ages ago, guitarists just used falsetas as an instrumental "break" in the singing.
As time went on and they developed more and more falsetas, they found they could arrange them all to make a nice Flamenco solo piece.
Tomatito could easily play any of those falsetas when accompanying.
BTW: When you've looked at a few Soleares with singer and guitar, have a look at say Paco Peña playing Soleares as a solo piece and you'll hear the same sort of falsetas being used as with the song.
(I know this thing sorta puzzled me at the start anyway!)
Printable Version
), what do you suggest I do for learning to improvise with this awesome sounding style? Learn a few RH techniques online and a few flamenco chords, and go from there? 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread