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flamenco ignorance
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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 flamenco ignorance
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flamenco ignorance
we recently played a private show at a party. our feedback for the show was
-the girl did not wear the spanish costume (even though she really dolled up, wore a manton, rose in her hair, etc.)
-the man danced with his jacket on (huh?)
-the music was not happy (even though we played two tangos, sevillanas, alegrias, and bulerias. i did play a tarantas, but still...)
it was a case of not knowing what they were getting. i think they were expecting gypsy king stuff with dancers in batas.
i'm sure most of you are familiar with this. we deal with this kind of stuff often on the foro. but let's not go there. lol.
how we can avoid this confusion in the future?
i was thinking we can collaborate on creating a BRIEF article that explain what flamenco is, the different palos and their counts and moods, some history, stuff to listen to, info on the guitar, dance, cante, etc.
we could post it as a sticky here on the foro, and print out as pamphlets to hand out at shows.
the goal is to educate and inform in a friendly, inviting, informative, hopefully exciting manner and to avoid sounding arrogant, though i know it's hard sometimes.
what do you guys think? instead of explaining a billion times to newcomers and possibly starting a fight each time, we can just direct them to the article and say, "don't have a stick up your ass. this is the way it is, sucker." 
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Date Mar. 18 2010 8:34:19
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Estevan
Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
Flamenco is in a niche genre along with African drumming and Tibetan nose flute There's no such thing as "Tibetan nose flute", but then Tibetan music is even more of a niche genre than flamenco, and the ignorance regarding it is correspondingly widespread.
quote:
I've related this story before about the American woman next to me in a Flamenco club in Madrid who jumped out of her skin during a Seguirillas when the singer started to sing.
She turned to me and said "Jeez...why does the guy have to shout so loud? "
Some time in the 80s I saw Paco de Lucia's group perform at a large concert hall here. It happened to be during the week of an International Choral Festival that was being held at the same venue, and so there were a few curious choral people in the audience.
It happened that one such choral lady was sitting next to me, and after a few songs she turned to me and said "That guy [Pepe de Lucia] really needs some singing lessons!"
I told her "It's supposed to sound like that!"
And she, (flustered) said "Oh, well, yes, of course, I know...but still..."
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[And by the way, the highlight of the choral festival - for me - was a group of Tibetan monks from Gyütö monastery. No flutes of any kind. ]
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Me da igual. La música es música.
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Date Mar. 18 2010 18:49:58
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Chiste de Gales
Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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Here's my contribution for our flamenco explanation article. Of course I expect others to add to it (or correct it), but I figured we needed a start:
Flamenco is a folk performance art form from Spain developed by gypsies. It was first performed only as singing without dancing or instruments. A singer would tap a rhythm with a cane or walking stick to keep time. The spanish word for stick is palo, which became the term used for any type of song form. (ie: Which palo will you perform?).
The specific rhythm in all flamenco is called Compás. Like the word compass in english, Compás is like a direction finder. It does not only mean to keep the beat, but to also emphasize important strong beats in the structure. Playing out of compás, or "Fuera de compás" should be avoided and usually an indicator of a performer who doesn't know what he is doing.
As an example- much music that falls into the tradition of the western world can be counted in four beats, and the first beat (shown underlined) is the one that is emphasized: 1 2 3 4.
The most traditional flamenco compás follows the following structure: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
One reason why its difficult for new listeners to follow the music is that most of us are in the habit of expecting beat #1 to be the strongest beat, and the other beats to be weaker.
The Gypsies (or "Gitanos" he-TAHN-ohse) of the Andalucia region of southern Spain are thought to have originated in India and through generations migrated West. They traveled through the middle-east, then northern Africa, and then crossed into Spain from Morocco.
The Gitanos adopted vocal styles of those they heard in the middle east and Northern Africa. This is why flamenco is not considered western music although Spain is in Europe. This is also why the sound of flamenco singing cant be judged by the same rules as those in western music.
The expression of passion and mood are very important in the singing, often above the actual act of producing notes and melody. Like an actor performing a dramatic role, the flamenco singer shows the listener the feelings he is expressing. That isn't just left for the interpretation of lyrics (called "Letra").
This style of singing does sound harsh and untrained by western music standards, but all the listener has to do when listening is to ask "What feelings is the singer expressing" rather than "What precise notes is the singer creating".
Finally, as it is the singing that was the original flamenco, in an ensemble performance the singer leads the performance, and the dancers and musical accompanists follow.
Dancing developed after flamenco singing. Besides producing a visual performance, dancers stomp precise rhythms with their feet. Modern dancers have many small nails added to the toe and heel of their shoes to emphasize the sound. Dancers are also expected to dance "in compás", emphasizing the strong beats so as to match, or be complimentary to the singer.
Musical instruments were added last in flamenco. The most recognizable one being the nylon string guitar. The guitar used can be a regular classical guitar, but usually it is a flamenco-specific design using different wood for the sake of a brighter tone. These guitars are often a light yellow color on the front, back, and sides that can be easily identified. This brighter tone of the flamenco specific guitar contrasts better with the sound of dancer's stomping feet.
With the modern advent of amplification and electronic tone processing, some guitarists are using classical guitars or a hybrid classical/flamenco design to get a more full tone. All flamenco guitarists, regardless of guitar type, have protective plastic plates attached to the top of their guitars that they tap against for added percussion sounds. This tapping is called "Golpe" (pron: GOAL-pay).
Other instruments were added in the 1970's (generally calculating): The electric bass, flute, cajon (a box shaped drum that the player sits on), keyboards, and a variety of percussion instruments. It was after these instruments were added to the art form that the terms "flamenco puro" (pure) and "flamenco nuevo" (new) began to be used to explain the difference between new and old styles.
The specific palos (performance style types) have a history of their own. Most are folk based, and a couple composed by modern performers.
Sources of palos and a couple of examples:
-Developed by the Gitanos: Solea, Seguirillas
-Adapted from non-gypsy local folk music: Sevillanas, Fandangos
-Ida y Vuelta (there-and-back, or "imported" from the Americas):Guajiras, Colombianas
-Modern Composition: Farruca, Rondeña
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Date Mar. 19 2010 7:48:39
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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wow, thanks chiste de gales! not only for taking the initiative but for the very in depth post. i actually learned new things.
you see, this is the internet, it's for sharing information and stealing your money. i don't think newcomers should have to wait to be in the heat of argument before finding out what flamenco is the hard way.
i know there's some people who are UNWILLING to learn. we can forget about them. by the way, is flamenco the only genre where noobs come in and try to teach the pros, who's been doing this for years, what flamenco is or isn't?
anyways, i'm more interested in open minded, curious people. i see people try to clap along to shows, fail miserably, put their hands down and put up a look of confusion. i think they will feel more included and appreciate the music and dance more if they had someone explain it to them.
so my idea is to not try to preach but to pass out information to the curious, so they can appreciate the music more, and we can feel like we're not performing for nothing. win-win!
ailsa, pictures and videos would be a good idea but that would only benefit my group. we probably will do that anyways. but i was thinking something that could be useful for the forum as well. the lady did give some positive feedback but i didn't impact me. i can't learn anything from it so i'm dwelling on the negatives. lol.
about westerners commenting on cante, my friend's wife like to call it masturbation... because the singer apparently is singing for himself and no one else. lol.
sean65, I'M craving some mickey d french fries right now.  as for the sangria, i have bad experiences with performing drunk....
btw, i honestly don't know who robert johnson is....
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Date Mar. 19 2010 10:04:54
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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ok, there isn't much that chiste de gales didn't cover already.
but here are some questions to develop this discussion. pretend a hot girl, guy, midget, granny, shemale, elephant tiger camel penguin chimera, whatever tickles your fancy, comes up to you and asks:
-what is this clapping business? why is that when i try to clap along, i feel like the type of fool that mr. t could pity?
-why do you play such sad stuff and then play such happy stuff. i can't figure you out. guess what, i'm bi-polar too, you want to borrow my pills?
-why are your nails so long? i already have a pussy cat, i don't need another one. are you too poor to buy a pick?
-so when are you going to play stuff that i can dance to?
-i have some really groovy flamenco in my car. want to take a ride with me to mcdonalds and listen to some ketama?
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Date Mar. 19 2010 10:18:36
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
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I suppose all I could say is..
Flamenco is a music that developed amongst the migrant Gypsy communities from the East who settled in Southern Spain a few hundred years ago.
It is very unlike any other Western folk music in that the rhythmic structures are more akin to Indian music with it's "cyclic" rhythmic forms than the usual 4/4, 3/4, 6/8 rhythms we are used to here, which makes "clapping along" (called "Palmas" in Flamenco) difficult unless you know the structure first.
The singing, guitar and dance tend to follow rules that are very unfamiliar to traditional Western musical ideas, sometimes appearing quite Indian and Arabic at times, exposing the roots from where this music originated.
All the forms of Flamenco, be it Singing, Guitar or Dance have a basic and rigid structure upon which the performer can improvise and freely express their own ideas, sometimes to a very high level of virtuosity and passion.
It is primarily an exposure of the human soul in it's rawest and most open form in it's expression of love, pain, loss, happiness and in fact all human emotions....but with a particular slant that it was born and nurctured in Andalucia, Spain and naturally carries with it the language, dialect and flavour of that region of the world, whilst remaining astonishingly pertinent to the human condition to folk everywhere who have ears to listen.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Mar. 19 2010 13:38:06
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Chiste de Gales
Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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OK here goes a bit more typing. This is word for word out of my 1986 New Harvard Dictionary of Music, pp 310-311. Their own citations are pretty old. Im sure we can find something newer to add from. Dictionaries dont use paragraphs so good luck:
Flamenco [Sp.]. A repertory of music and dance of Andalusia in southern Spain. Its origins remain much in dispute and have been variously attributed to Arabic-speaking peoples entering Spain from North Africa and to Gypsies arriving from the east or from the north (including the Low Countries, whence, according to some authorities, the name, which can mean Flemish), among others. On grounds of musical similarities, the strongest arguments point to Arabic and, to a lesser extent, Indian (by way of Gypsies) ties. Its association with Gypsies remains strong. The repertory incorporates characteristic styles of singing (including cante hondo or jondo deep song, a term sometimes applied to the repertory as a whole) dancing (featuring erect posture, foot stamping, and finger snapping), and guitar playing (in which both strumming and passage work are prominent). Much of the music embodies the E or Phrygian mode, the descending phrase A, G, F, E being a characteristic concluding melodic gesture, but with significant microtonal inflections. Vocal performances often begin with elaborate melismas on the syllable ay and are strongly improvisational in character, being judged by auditors in large measure on the basis of what is perceived to be the extent of the singer's inspiration of the moment. Singers do not normally accompany themselves, and both singing and dancing may be accompanied by the hand clapping of other performers present. Among the numerous individual musical types are the *seguidilla (siguiriya) and *soleá. A group of singers, dancers, and guitarists is termed a cuadro flamenco or tablao (from the platform on which they sit and perform). The continuing evolution of the repetory has resulted in mixed genres and considerable interpenetration of flamenco traditions and other forms of folk and popular music.
Bibl.: Donn E Pohren, The ARt of Flamenco (Jerez de la Frontera: Jerez industrial, 1962; 3rd ed., Morón de la Frontera: Soc of Span Studies, 1972). Id., Lives and Legends of Flamenco: A Biographical History (La Mesa, Cal.: Soc of Span Studies, 1964). Ricardo Molina and Antonio Mairena, Mundo y Formas del cante flamenco (Seville: Libr Al-Andalus, 1971). Manuel Ríos Ruiz, Introducción al cante flamenco (Madrid: Ed Istmo, 1972). Arcadio Larres Palacín, El flamenco en su raiz (Madrid: Edit nacional, 1974).
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Date Mar. 19 2010 16:26:42
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