Help finding a guitar

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duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

Help finding a guitar

Hello

(This is my very first post at these forums. I am excited

)

OK, For years, since early 1990s, I have had guitar. It is am Encore, semi-acoustic, roundbacked steel-stringed guitar. But I am afraid to say that it has hampered my progress learning guitar severely (as has my lack of initiative to do something much earlier about this problem. There are reasons for that too personal to go into here)

For one, the action was too high, so I find it hard to barre chords. And the steel strings were hard on fingers. So to cut a long sstory short, I ended up staying at top? of neck near strings, and became a strummer, and feeling a block about what i am doing etc.;

As I have c9ome online and been inspired by watching great guitarists playing on free videos, and all the guitar lessons help (MUCH better than any books , in my popinion), I am now greatly inspired to now at las try and really learn what playing a guitar is really about.

I telephoned our town's main instrument supplier, and said I was complete beginner and told him about the existing guitar problems, and that I was very much interested in Flamenco. He recommended the Santos Martinez SM 80 Classical guitar. And it is relatively cheap at £130 (well a lot to me, as I dont have much money, but I Am beginner)

I asked him if he had Flamenco guitars, and he said they were really Classical guitars with some special features?

I have also learned from some YOutube guitar contacts that the action on Flamenco guitars is lower than Classical guitars (an idea VERY seductive for me, who has suffered high action for 'ever')--Another person told me they had played Flamenco in Andalucia and many of the real good players there prefered cheap guitars...?

But I have had avice to contact Flamenco and/or Classical musicians and makers about this before rushing out in desperation and buying a guitar. This is main reason I have joined these forums.

Can you help please?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2009 4:37:56

duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

not a hint of reply.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 1:07:39

andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

Try and do a search for any of the posts about the Yamaha CG171-SF

_____________________________

¡este arbol tiene duende, cabron!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 1:16:16

affect

Posts: 39
Joined: Mar. 17 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

Hi duwen,

I am a beginner when it comes to flamenco or guitars for that matter, so here's my two cents...

You CAN get a classical guitar and use it to learn flamenco. This will mainly be due to price considerations. I didn't go that route and opted for a M. Rodriguez C3F (still relatively cheap). I have been trying several low-cost guitars at my local shop and have found that the following models are reasonable choices for flamenco:

Yamaha CG171SF (Classical body size, flamenco wood type and action)
Takamine G128S (Classical body type, but bright enough for flamenco with low action)
Yamaha CG171S (Classical body, but likes to disguise as a flamenca negra)

The first is a good choice since it comes with golpadeores and already has low action (and has a nice sound). I found the takamine to be nice-sounding but try to test the instrument before you buy. The 171S also has a spruce top (like flamenca blanca).

All of the above are relatively cheap, factory-made instruments that I have tried and found to be good for Flamenco playing (especially rasgueos which for me provide the ultimate test for how a flamenco guitar should sound!).

Hope this helps...

Cheers,
A.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 5:09:33

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

You're in the UK? Aren't Spanish-made flamenco guitars a little easier to find and cheaper where you are?

_____________________________

Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 6:48:24

duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to andresito)

quote:

Yamaha CG171-SF

Thankyou. I immediately did a little search a got this great blog that lovingly review this guitar! http://chiyostrings.blogspot.com/2008/04/review-yamaha-cg171sf-flamenco-guitar.html

It looks good. I am going to answer all the great replies here so far, but just to say--what's missing is prices. I have to think of this because, errrm I dont have that much money, and I am a beginner.
The guitar I was first recommended--after making enquiries at my town's major musical instrument supplier was--as I said first post, the Santos Martinez SM 80 which is £130.00

But from you as experienced Flamenco, may I ask why you personally recommend this guitar please--in detail as possible?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 8:23:03

duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to affect)

Hey affect,

Thankyou for your advice. It is good to know there are other beginners here, but I bet you are far better than me...

Those guitars I will checkout.
Rasgueos?....What is difference between rasgueos on classical and flamenco guitars?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 8:27:14

duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to GuitarVlog)

I tried earlier on at the biggest second-hand supplier of guitars etc, and was told he had two Spanish-made Flamenco guitars in , I think he said one was £200 and the other £270.
More expensive than the Santos Martinez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 8:29:37

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: duwen

quote:

Yamaha CG171-SF

Thankyou.

That's my signature (look below). I follow the convention that some forum members list their guitars in their signature.

But I do think that the Yamaha is a great beginner's guitar. It's just that I've heard that it's more expensive outside of the US. We get them here for $300.

_____________________________

Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 9:29:50

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

you will find in england that alot of brgginer flameco players use classical guiatrs with the action set lower. the difference in price is usually, from the guitars ive had experience with, about £200 a cheap classical ranging from 120 up to a cheap flamenco from abour 300 up a good person to talk to in the uk about the lower end options is pablo requena. he has a shop in lewes and is very helpful to anyone taking up the guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 14:43:52

duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Thanks SEden, Yea, the price of the Santos Martinez, and recommendation is very attractive--i think I mentioned it is £129 which i call 130.
And they have said they will fit a plate on it for percussive purposes, and will lower action if needed.
But I will like also to talk with Pablo, so thanks for this contact, I really appreciate your help

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2009 3:48:10

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

a classical with a lower setup may be good for you, but in the long run it's worth getting a real flamenco, even second hand, maybe save for another month or two until you can get one...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2009 4:48:44

duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

.....thanks. hmmm but can you give me your best poetic reasons why......?
what is the essence that would be missing from the santos that i would get from a flamenco which even if i did save would not be in the 'vast' amounts they can cost

what is the magic.....?...from YOUR perspective

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2009 8:19:12

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

i don't have much in depth knowledge about construction of guitars, nor have i played the top of the range ones that many members here have...
i'm advising you to get a real flamenco because in my experience that's brought the biggest improvement to my playing...i had a good classical guitar, not top of the range, but a very good middle category one that i played, first as it was, then i lowered the action and it felt great...but when i decided to get my first real flamenco, i just felt it was totally different...both to my hands but especially to my ears...that difference in tone means the world, as it (the flamenco guitar) was designed to give those kinds of tones you're looking for in this kind of music...that's when i began to understand subtle differences in technique...
and nowadays when i (rarely) pick up the classical, though it really is a fine instrument, i can't produce the tone i want and it just sounds different (crap) when i play just normal flamenco on it...
perhaps a luthier could tell the differences in depth...but it means a lot that the body of the flamenco is lighter, softer, thinner, the action is already low though sometimes not optimal...oh and the golpeador is already there :)
everyone i heard that switched from classical to flamenco were extremely satisfied with their choice, so i advise to save or to look for a cheap used flamenco to save you a headache later, when you're getting better technically and ear-wise...i myself consider the best choice so far in my life saving up and buying a real (though not cheap) flamenco guitar...i can't imagine being stuck with a classical now...(hehe i sound like a before-after commercial :))

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2009 16:09:44

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

i did a quick google search and found used classical guitars for sale for as much as 30 pounds...i really don't want to sound disrespectful to the maker, but honestly any guitar in this price category is considered s-hit...great for a total beginner, but as you have played before you might not be satisfied with it...especially when your "flamenco ears" start to develop and believe me they will, you'll want to move on...and for that reason i recommend you buy a second hand very cheap guitar and start to save slowly for the real thing, by the time you've saved up around 300 (i'd think that's where flamencos start) you'll understand the basics, then you can make your investment, or if you lose interest you'll have saved 100 pounds :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2009 16:20:34

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

Would you have to pay any VAT or excise taxes if you bought kovachian's Yamaha?

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=104865&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

That'd be 125 P plus shipping?

_____________________________

Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2009 17:20:41

duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to GuitarVlog)

But you know, that guitar looks very beautiful, but many people advise me to always try guitars before I buy them. My worrying--if you like--is not wanting to maike mistake i made with first guitar (only guitar) which I LOVE actually and will never seoll--in that it impeded my understanding of guitar, but i can hit a note on it and go into a trance quite happily

But the point is, to get one online like that might--for me personally--be inviting disappointment...?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2009 4:29:57

duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

Great reply. Just what I was looking for!

can you describe more the tone you now love?..I know it may be difficult with words, but if you may try...?

AND--I also like some classical music. Can you , for example, play Classical on your Flemenco and get THAT sound...?

Also, you never mentioned how much it cost, and when you got it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2009 4:33:16

duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

Thanks for doing a bit of research for me

Theres no way I would get THAt cheap a guitar. It surely would be crap!

I have always been bad at math...How would I save 100 quid? again?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2009 4:35:15

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

i'm afraid i can't describe that tone :)...but listen to pro recordings, it's not very far from that...and on the proper guitar you can learn to create the proper tone with your fingers...
my guitar cost about a thousand pounds, but i tried several flamenco guitars before that and i decided to save and go for the best, i fortunately got some family help too for my birthday, so i actually payed for only 2/3 of it...
only a month or two ago i tried a yamaha at our local guitar shop and it was really good for the price, the one positive thing about that guitar is that they say you can buy it without trying since they're very consistent and really good value for the money...
believe me, 30-130 quid, there's no real difference...
but people are right, you should try as many guitars as you can and decide for yourself...if you're living in an urban area i'm sure there's at least one store where they have a yamaha too or maybe other models...
our local store sells Cayuela's besides the Yamaha and several Ramirez guitars, that's also quite affordable and although i don't really like it, it is flamenco in design and sound...

oh and generally you will be able to play classical on a flamenco, thought (on purpose) it doesn't hold the tone much, but the difference is not as noticable as if you were trying to play flamenco on a classical...

100 quid you'd be saving if you bought a guitar for 30 instead of 130 and decided to lose interest in flamenco later - that way you won't have spent another 100 for a guitar that's crap anyway and won't be using it anymore :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2009 4:55:11

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

duwen,

If you want to study flamenco, save a little more money and buy yourself a proper flamenco guitar. You can get the action a little lower on a classical but you won't get it low enough as the bridge on a classical guitar is higher than a bridge on a flamenco. The body of a classical is also deeper which is going to give you a more "boomy" sound when playing flamenco. A flamenco will also have a 'golpeador' (tap plate) installed and a classical will not.

If you end up really liking flamenco you'll quickly find yourself growing out of this classical guitar and will end up spending more money upgrading to another one.

You don't have to worry about buying a guitar without playing first if the dealer has a good reputation and a trial period. A trial period is a must.

I sell flamenco guitars, www.lafalseta.com but shipping would be more expensive for you than if you were to order from someone in Europe.

Try these guys:
www.staffordguitar.com

Or try calling my friend Johannes at www.mundo-flamenco.com He is in Germany. He would be my first choice as he specializes in the flamenco guitar.

Good Luck

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2009 5:35:44

affect

Posts: 39
Joined: Mar. 17 2009

RE: Help finding a guitar (in reply to duwen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: duwen
...
What is difference between rasgueos on classical and flamenco guitars?
...

The difference is what distinguishes between flamenco and classical guitars. Flamenco guitars have a sharper, more percussive sound. When striking a chord (as in rasgueos) each note can be heard as a distinct sound. Classical guitars tend to morph the notes into a unified sound that can be described with words such as 'mellow' and 'sustained'.

My last guitar was a Yamaha CGX171SCF (not the CG171SF!) which is a hybrid classical guitar disguised as a flamenco guitar with its form-factor, wood-type, golpeadores and action. The sound of rasgueos on that guitar was a jumble of noise. Lack of experience lead me to buy this guitar so use that and don't make the same mistake! Mind you, the guitar is nice (and relatively expensive!) but not for flamenco!

May I suggest you go to your local guitar shop and start playing different instruments. you will notice that guitars will sound differently when playing chords.

BTW, here are some prices of the guitars I suggested (in Canadian dollars):
Yamaha CG171SF ($500)
Takamine G128S ($350)
Yamaha CG171S ($450)

Since each Euro is worth about CDN$50, that shouldn't be too expensive for you ;)
But seriously, the prices went up recently, sometimes by as much as $200! Look online for current prices of these and other instruments that you find locally.

Good luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 29 2009 0:03:44