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RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to akriosss)
I think if you have trouble changing chords you need to practice changing chords.
Just concentrate on a few chords at a time and change super slowly. The slower you change from chord to chord to the faster you'll be changing chords at compas speed. Changing chords at compas tempo is most important.
Technical exercises can become a bottomless rat hole. If you can't do bar chords, then practice bar chords with arpeggios or thumb. The very best way to f$$ck your hands and your ears up is to over practice technical stuff without music.
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to estebanana)
Thanks Ethan. I was a cello performance major my first year in college, I was so nervous and over zealous, and practiced with such stress that I developed a wrist problem that forced me to drop out of the program.
It took me many years to try music again and the right teachers to help me with the stress while playing.
You need a good teacher first and foremost. Technical stuff ain't gonna fix you. Technical work is what a teacher assigns in order for you to work on small problems that they diagnose. Giving yourself un-needed technical work is like doing an operation on yourself without a doctor.
I took cello lessons again at age 45 from a very well known ad expensive teacher. She showed me some very small problems that other teachers missed, even though when I was younger I had actually studied with one of her students. I had also studied with a student of Casals and Jackie Du Pre -- If you have problems get them diagnosed y the best teacher you can find and don't risk self diagnosing your problems.
Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I think if you have trouble changing chords you need to practice changing chords.
quote:
Changing chords at compas tempo is most important.
quote:
Technical exercises can become a bottomless rat hole.
quote:
Technical stuff ain't gonna fix you.
I agree with all of this. In fact, I think that's exactly what I said a few posts previously, but at least one person in this thread thought I was being arrogant and presumptuous because (in his opinion) I didn't give the original poster the response he asked for ...
I guess estebanana has all the 'best words'. I wish I were as popular as estebanana or The Donald. (No offence to you intended, Sr. Faulk).
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to estebanana)
I retroactively pardon myself for all words I said after your most esteemed post. And I will pardon those who wronged you by disrespecting your words, but only after I build a wall around them and make them do technical left jive for many years. Many years.
I will build a big beautiful wall around all flamenco books, and Spain will pay for it. They'll pay, they will pay. I've spoken to the King of Spain about this and they will pay.
I get your point but hopefully people realize the point of these exercices is not to learn chromatic scales but to help you in your music playing. It's like PE or muscle-building exercices you learn when training for a marathon. You could always just forget the exercices and only do the running part per se, but the exercices really do serve a purpose and help move you along, even when the connection doesn't seem that obvious. The point being: Practicing with music and doing digitation exercices aren't mutually exclusive.
Hmm, I agree that focused, specific exercises can help if they are directed to address a specific, known problem. But your analogy is seriously flawed. I personally have run a marathon, so I know it has nothing to do with skill or 'purpose', rather it's a matter of physical endurance and mental attitude. In the case of the original poster, he can't switch chords. That's pretty basic, and barring a medical condition that's something he should have no problems with after 6 months of practice.
Given that, my advice to get lessons then practice switching chords in a musical context (e.g. Sevillanas) makes a lot of sense - I don't know how anyone can disagree with that ....
Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
So you didn't answer the question. You decided they needed something else....
I get your point though, if a beginner is struggling then I would agree lessons are the way to go. In the first post the level wasn't specified, and most of us at some point become responsible for our own learning process.
Don't take it personally. Yes, you were the first to respond, and yes you gave the original poster a list of exercises - exactly what he asked for. But by the time I responded the original poster has clarified his post, and said that the problem was he '"cant even change 2 chords, cant do most of flamenco chords". By that point it was clear that chromatic exercises are NOT what he needs.
In fact, I WAS responsive to his request, and I DID suggest 'exercises', but in the form of Sevillanas - addressing both the specific problem of not being able to form/change chords and the general problem of not being able to do that in a musical context, without suggesting chromatic, non-musical, non-responsive random 'exercises' which wouldn't do anything to help his ability or motivation.
As you can see this thread has devolved into a discussion of technical chromatic exercises. Which is NOT what the original poster was asking for; he was asking for help playing guitar.
I still think my suggestion was good and valuable. As I said, it's not long since I was a beginner and dealt with the same issued. Sorry if you can't see that.
Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I retroactively pardon myself for all words I said after your most esteemed post. And I will pardon those who wronged you by disrespecting your words, but only after I build a wall around them and make them do technical left jive for many years. Many years.
I will build a big beautiful wall around all flamenco books, and Spain will pay for it. They'll pay, they will pay. I've spoken to the King of Spain about this and they will pay.
This is why I would vote for estebanana, leader of the Manzanilla Party: "A paella in every pot and a juerga in every garage."
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to timoteo)
Feels like you're overreacting a bit here. I didn't see anyone suggest you were "arrogant and presumptuous". If anyone did, than it must've been really sneaky. It definitely didn't make it on my radar. I thought you made a good point. A lot of the suggestions were in the same vein, though for some reason you seem to have focused only on the "chromatic" exercices. As for the marathon analogy. I'm not sure you understood. At the risk of boring the hell out of everyone, put it this way: why does anyone waste time doing abs or developing lower back exercices at home or at the gym when what they really want to do is run a marathon? Because focused exercices on those muscles can help develop them in a way that running simply can't, no matter how miles you put it. But developing those muscles really helps you run... And that's just one example but the point isn't to go through all the types of exercices that one can do to help your running performance. Sure, you can run a marathon without doing those exercices. You won't be doing it at your best performance though. In the same way, there are certain exercices on the guitar that will help you develop muscles or skills that just playing sevillanas won't. And these things later feed back in to your ability to play (and your sense of comfort while playing). You won't find a Professional guitarist who doesn't do any technical exercices any more than you'll find a Professional marathon runner who doesn't do point muscle-development exercices. And yes, there is a lot of skill involved, not just brute endurance. You don't get down to just over 2h time by only being stronger or more endurant. You also get down there by streamlining every single movement. Making sure your pace, the way you run, doesn't waste any energy at all. I can finish a marathon. But there's a whole lot of waste in how I run. And it's not by running 20 more marathons that I'm somehow going to magically make that waste dissappear. It would require careful analysis of how I run and exercices on how to develop a more efficient movement. Anyways, all of this is moot. We don't have enough info to go on anyways. 6-months doesn't say much. If he can't do barre chords after 6-months practicing 4 hours a day, then yeah I'd say there's a problem. If he can't do barre chords after 6-months playing once every two weeks, then it's just the usual suspects and it will come with time.
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to estebanana)
The difference is a pro player can tell which technique building work is good for them. Beginner needs to have technical work assignments that fit the musical goal they have, and they are not at the self diagnostic level yet.
Playing chords s l o w l y for a person who can't play them fast IS technical work. Duh.
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to estebanana)
I'm gonna ask mark indigo if I can borrow his randometer from that other thread. Maybe there's a dial in there that explains how people manage to disagree when they're saying the exact same thing. I'm starting to get a whole new appreciation of the dialogue between Mr and Mrs Martin in the Bald Soprano.
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to timoteo)
quote:
at least one person in this thread thought I was being arrogant and presumptuous because (in his opinion) I didn't give the original poster the response he asked for ...
quote:
OK, I'm going to disagree with everybody above
I didn't say you were being "arrogant and presumptuous", you have decided that that's what I thought (wait, maybe now you are being presumptuous.... )
I did think that to "disagree with everybody above" was a very sweeping catch-all statement.
quote:
Don't take it personally.
You think I was taking your "disagree with everybody" personally, and, er, now you seem to be taking my response personally!!!
Yes, this is getting a bit random!!!
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that there is a time and a place for teachers, and a time and a place for exercises. I don't generally go much for "single right answers" like you should just do exercises or you shouldn't do exercises at all.
I personally have a warm-up and technique practise routine, and don't practise anything in it that is not related to music in some way.
Whenever I find something difficult in a falseta I try to find a way of isolating and working on the difficulty. I play several falsetas with chromatic scale sections in them, and those parts of the falsetas are the parts that I find most difficult, for my left hand and for left-right hand coordination. So practising chromatic scales is for me a way of addressing that. I can justify everything in my daily routine in the same way.
I have had at least 5 teachers over the last 20-25 years, plus various workshops and classes. Lots of them have given or recommended exercises. In addition I have had to work through a lot of the problems and difficulties I have encountered myself. I think it's a lifelong never ending process.
An unjust display of the run on paragraph. Simply frightful.
quote:
Feels like you're overreacting a bit here. I didn't see anyone suggest you were "arrogant and presumptuous". If anyone did, than it must've been really sneaky. It definitely didn't make it on my radar. I thought you made a good point. A lot of the suggestions were in the same vein, though for some reason you seem to have focused only on the "chromatic" exercices. As for the marathon analogy. I'm not sure you understood. At the risk of boring the hell out of everyone, put it this way: why does anyone waste time doing abs or developing lower back exercices at home or at the gym when what they really want to do is run a marathon? Because focused exercices on those muscles can help develop them in a way that running simply can't, no matter how miles you put it. But developing those muscles really helps you run... And that's just one example but the point isn't to go through all the types of exercices that one can do to help your running performance. Sure, you can run a marathon without doing those exercices. You won't be doing it at your best performance though. In the same way, there are certain exercices on the guitar that will help you develop muscles or skills that just playing sevillanas won't. And these things later feed back in to your ability to play (and your sense of comfort while playing). You won't find a Professional guitarist who doesn't do any technical exercices any more than you'll find a Professional marathon runner who doesn't do point muscle-development exercices. And yes, there is a lot of skill involved, not just brute endurance. You don't get down to just over 2h time by only being stronger or more endurant. You also get down there by streamlining every single movement. Making sure your pace, the way you run, doesn't waste any energy at all. I can finish a marathon. But there's a whole lot of waste in how I run. And it's not by running 20 more marathons that I'm somehow going to magically make that waste dissappear. It would require careful analysis of how I run and exercices on how to develop a more efficient movement. Anyways, all of this is moot. We don't have enough info to go on anyways. 6-months doesn't say much. If he can't do barre chords after 6-months practicing 4 hours a day, then yeah I'd say there's a problem. If he can't do barre chords after 6-months playing once every two weeks, then it's just the usual suspects and it will come with time.
Posts: 1696
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: Exercises recommendation (in reply to estebanana)
This thread reminds me of something I read in a book, "47 Picados," by Jorge Berges:
"Hemos preferido no describir muchos ejercicios preparatorios pues, a nuestro juicio, el mejor ejercicio que existe es la practica de la propia obra en sí. En ocasiones se dan casos entre los guitarristas que acaban dominando a la perfección un ejercicio pero luego este no existe en ninguna de sus interpretaciones musicales."
"We've preferred not to include many preparatory exercises since, in our opinion the best exercise is to practice the work itself. Sometimes among guitarists you come across someone who can perfectly execute an exercise but then finds it has no practical application in music."
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