Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
and also I suspect NOT true BR species. But who cares really.
I brought this up to promote the Ramirez book because it was an interesting read. Brune emailed me privately to set it straight that Brazil gov. had an embargo on the wood because they wanted to regulate it. Very much later it is "endangered", but the main point is that as popular as it is on guitars and furniture, I was surprised to read Ramirez sentiments regarding that wood, and how it was being exploited so long ago. I am fine with Indian Rosewood and other species of dark figured wood.
I would be remiss if I did not place an additive on this comment, suffice my writing to stand in for a post script that the esteemed Mr. Jernigan is too modest to write himself.
The beast days of the 1960’s Ramírez shop were also the shining epoch of another Madrid institution, for these were the times of the Hotel Wellington’s famous Jernigan Suites rooms. The lair of Richard Jernigan who was also known about town as Tres Pulgas, because his alzapua was so devistating it’s if he had three thumbs working together to ratchet out notes like an air driven hammer. The Jernigan Suites were on par with the American Academy in Rome as a meeting place of the most cultured tertulias in the city. Most importantly the suites were a humanitarian oasis fulfilling a complete agenda spanning the sponsorship of great authors in residence, a science foundation dedicated and co operated by the Cousteau family, and finally a setting where the moral virtue of wayward senoritas was preserved.
Lest newcomers should be puzzled, or suspect that my friend Stephen has gotten into the shochu once again, a word of explanation.
I used to stay at the Hotel Emperador in Madrid, on the Gran Via. It was a bit down at the heel, but had an imposing exterior. The hardwood floors were comprehensively scuffed, the rugs worn out, the bathrooms clean, but tiled in brown, with glaring maroon fixtures from the 1940s. It was respectable, but inexpensive, despite its sonorous name.
Several years ago Charles Vega (RIP) frequented the Foro. (I think it was this one.) Vega was a highly skilled machinist, employed by the Physics Department at Johns Hopkins University to build specialized equipment for experiments. He also made guitars. One in particular was beautifully made of spectacular birdseye maple.
I once mentioned casually that I had staid at the Emperador during a recent visit. Vega disparaged me for being a rich tourist, while he virtuously stayed at a pensión, associating freely with the common folk.
I pointed out that the label in the only one of his guitars I had seen read "Carlos Francisco Vega," and asked whether this was how he introduced himself in Spain, while associating with the common folk.
Then I posted some preposterous bullsh1t about the Emperador, making it out to be far more posh than it was in fact.
After the death of Franco, the Gran Via began to be populated late at night by young women, scantily dressed even in winter, looking for customers. I wrote (falsely) that, out of a charitable impulse I sometimes rented a few rooms at the Emperador for them, so they could periodically warm up indoors.
Stephen and Bill Barkell chimed in with further exaggerated claims about my apocryphal "activities". Hence the "Jernigan Suites" and other fantasies.
For a while, they continued to make up humorous baloney about me. I thought it had died down, but Stephen has come through once again.
Despite this explanation, I'm not ruling out the possibility of shochu being involved.
I once mentioned casually that I had staid at the Emperador during a recent visit. Vega disparaged me for being a rich tourist, while he virtuously stayed at a pensión, associating freely with the common folk.
And I defended you against Vega's charge, to which Vega responded: "I can see no reason to have even mentioned the Emperador other than a 'thinly veiled' attempt to impress the unwashed masses."
It all took off from there, behind the thinnest of veils.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I would be remiss if I did not place an additive on this comment, suffice my writing to stand in for a post script that the esteemed Mr. Jernigan is too modest to write himself.
The beast days of the 1960’s Ramírez shop were also the shining epoch of another Madrid institution, for these were the times of the Hotel Wellington’s famous Jernigan Suites rooms. The lair of Richard Jernigan who was also known about town as Tres Pulgas, because his alzapua was so devistating it’s if he had three thumbs working together to ratchet out notes like an air driven hammer. The Jernigan Suites were on par with the American Academy in Rome as a meeting place of the most cultured tertulias in the city. Most importantly the suites were a humanitarian oasis fulfilling a complete agenda spanning the sponsorship of great authors in residence, a science foundation dedicated and co operated by the Cousteau family, and finally a setting where the moral virtue of wayward senoritas was preserved.
Lest newcomers should be puzzled, or suspect that my friend Stephen has gotten into the shochu once again, a word of explanation.
I used to stay at the Hotel Emperador in Madrid, on the Gran Via. It was a bit down at the heel, but had an imposing exterior. The hardwood floors were comprehensively scuffed, the rugs worn out, the bathrooms clean, but tiled in glaring maroon from the 1940s. It was respectable, but inexpensive, despite its sonorous name.
Several years ago Charles Vega (RIP) frequented the Foro. (I think it was this one.) Vega was a highly skilled machinist, employed by the Physics Department at Johns Hopkins University to build specialized equipment for experiments. He also made guitars. One in particular was beautifully made of spectacular birdseye maple.
I once mentioned casually that I had staid at the Emperador during a recent visit. Vega disparaged me for being a rich tourist, while he virtuously stayed at a pensión, associating freely with the common folk.
I pointed out that the label in the only one of his guitars I had seen read "Carlos Francisco Vega," and asked whether this was how he introduced himself in Spain, while associating with the common folk.
Then I posted some preposterous bullsh1t about the Emperador, making it out to be far more posh than it was in fact.
After the death of Franco, the Gran Via began to be populated late at night by young women, scantily dressed even in winter, looking for customers. I wrote (falsely) that, out of a charitable impulse I sometimes rented a few rooms at the Emperador for them, so they could periodically warm up indoors.
Stephen and Bill Barkell chimed in with further exaggerated claims about my apocryphal "activities". Hence the "Jernigan Suites" and other fantasies.
For a while, they continued to make up humorous baloney about me. I thought it had died down, but Stephen has come through once again.
Despite this explanation, I'm not ruling out the possibility of shochu being involved.
RNJ
Well of course it was the Emperador Hotel, but in this round of iterations on the story I changed it to the Wellington as a nod to your ancient lineage of being ‘to the manor born’ in great British society.
Shochu involved? Compai~
Regarding Carlos the guitar maker, a fine craftsman who was appropriately haughty about his place as a maker of things. Even though his style and thresholds for aesthetic decisions aren’t my favorite, he was true believer in the sanctity of making with the hand and eye. He deserves respect, and a good ribbing, concurrently. Carlos is dead, long live Carlos the maker.
they still do bribes on that... , altough theres a special permit to produce and sell Br Rosewood in Brasil, new wood only. I dont know how many time it takes to grow and ready to cut , but i´ll guess that too long..., so that permit only applies to produce , since it will take (i guess) a lot of time to sell it
I wonder if there is ANY legit wood for guitars left.
In a video I saw recently the English luthier Gary Southwell mentions that he has used bog oak for classical guitar back and sides, a few times.
Over the last couple of centuries some wetlands in southeastern England have been drained and converted to farmland. These days farmers will occasionally plow up an oak tree that has been buried in the ground for 3,000-5,000 years. The acidity and lack of oxygen of the previous swamp water and mud have acted to prevent the wood from decaying altogether.
Until recently bog oak was available only in small pieces. When it was dried out it split into small chunks. Southwell says a steel string maker has figured out how to dry out bog oak in a slow, controlled process that yields pieces big enough for backs and sides. However, only a few sets are available each year.
Since seeing Southwell's video I've run across one ad for a bog oak steel string.
Over the last couple of centuries some wetlands in southeastern England have been drained and converted to farmland. These days farmers will occasionally plow up an oak tree that has been buried in the ground for 3,000-5,000 years. The acidity and lack of oxygen of the previous swamp water and mud have acted to prevent the wood from decaying altogether.
I live on the edge of the fens and I assure you we are not in "southeastern England"
"South East England" consists of the counties of Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, East Sussex, Hampshire, the Isle of Wight, Kent, Oxfordshire, Surrey and West Sussex.
The Fens are in parts of Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and Lincolnshire.
Lincolnshire is part of the "East Midlands".
Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk are "Eastern England" along with the counties of Bedfordshire, Essex and Hertfordshire (Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk are also known as "East Anglia").
I drive across the fens every week to play for dance classes, and I've seen the almost black tree trunks at the side of fields when they've been ploughing...
Bog oak classical guitar video (Richard Durrant visits Hamish the Bog Oak Man to see some of the wood being sawn up, there are pictures of the trees/logs in the fields, and he talks to the maker Gary Southwell):
Unless it's a replacement from the 80s, it's between 2500 and 3000 years old, or at least the henge is. To me, there is something mind bending about a people considering turning a tree upside down and pointing it into the centre of the earth, and actually doing it. One argument is that it could have been a surface for the disposal of corpses, birdwise. Sorry, off topic.
Really enjoyable series on BBC R4 called On Mardle Fen by Nick Warburton. I don't live there, mind you. As good as Pilgrim by Sebastian Baczkiewicz. Sorry, ditto - that's it.
Indian rosewood is fine. I have two. Doesn't "smell" great, but I always liked the dark look juxtaposed against a yellow soundboard. My bigger concern is the soundboard material. Other than German Spruce, Sitka Spruce, and red Cedar, what have people had success with?
I have friend who has a flamenco guitar made by Les Stansell (who's not making guitars anymore) entirely out of Port Orford Cedar and it's a wonderful sounding instrument.
I live on the edge of the fens and I assure you we are not in "southeastern England"
Sorry for the geographical blooper, Mark. I should have said East Anglia. It's the only part of England I have visited more than once, other than London, Reading, Basingstoke, Aldermaston, etc., which Wikipedia tells me are actually in Southeastern England.
Indian rosewood is fine. I have two. Doesn't "smell" great, but I always liked the dark look juxtaposed against a yellow soundboard. My bigger concern is the soundboard material. Other than German Spruce, Sitka Spruce, and red Cedar, what have people had success with?
Several species of spruce make great guitars. The names in circulation among makers are:
Engelmann Lutz - a hybrid of Sitka and Engelmann Red Spruce - ‘European’ or German common name covering Central Europe Spruce Orientalis - similar to Sitka Hemlock - Fir Doug Fir
Redwood ( salvaged from old bridges) Sinker Redwood ( buried under silt)
Port Orford Cedar AKA Lawson Cypress Hinoki - Japanese cousin of Lawson
Cedars, both low level growth and higher elevation example is Yakushima cedar I was able to get.
There’s probably something I’ve forgotten, but if handled well any of these woods could make a flamenco top.
There’s probably something I’ve forgotten, but if handled well any of these woods could make a flamenco top.
Interesting. I am a bit surprised Lawson cypress works well. Curious if any of these top woods are in an exploitation danger zone like the Madagascar/CA Rosewoods?
Most of the Swiss/Italian spruce comes from forests that have been maintained for a long time and the EU tracks the wood with serial numbers on each set. Spruce not in danger, rosewoods are different, complex situation because some of the hardwoods you can use as back & sides are not in any danger whatsoever, like the various ‘iron woods’ it covers a wide range of different fast growing species. The Madagascar situation is political and a conservativation issue. A lot of the very old stocks of wood from South America, advertised by a maker I will not name, is old enough to have been harvested by slaves. Think about that.
The rosewood and pernambuco for violin bows that entered Europe up until the latter 19th century was harvested by slave labor. After that very low paid labor. Now the most sought after sets of back & sides woods that are commodities were harvested by low paid labor. It’s not just the environmental concerns, but there are deep social issues behind the luxury woods. The chain of custody of a modern last few decades harvested EIR from a plantation is probably fairly ethical and environmentally sound. The faster growing species in Brazil will be ok if they don’t slash and burn too much land to raise beef cattle.
If you’re worried about either the social or environmental impact on wood there are a lot of alternatives that do not have any difference on finished sound quality of the guitar. It comes under the heading of ‘agricultural salvage’ meaning it’s from trees that were cut down because they are too old and dangerous to be in a park or near a house. Stuff like that can be found. I try to work to get 50% of my back & sides from salvage wood by sourcing it myself and having it milled. I also have a professional slab table maker looking for wood when he’s on buying trips. He buys salvage trees to make huge tables, like 5” thick and 12’ long by 4’ wide. He finds things I might want and texts photos. Eventually he’s going to find a tree called Japanese Cinnamon ( not real cinnamon of course) and I’m going to be set.
I’m looking for one of these logs or two. I’ll buy it and have it cut into beams, dry the beams for a year then have Yamashita resaw it into side and back sets.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
The "cedar" popularized for guitar tops by Jose Ramirez III in the 1960s is "Western Red Cedar" which grows in Washington and Oregon, USA, as well as British Columbia, Canada.
Western Red Cedar (thuja plicata) is not a true cedar, which is to say it is not a member of the genus cedrus.
The "cedar" popularized for guitar tops by Jose Ramirez III in the 1960s is "Western Red Cedar" which grows in Washington and Oregon, USA, as well as British Columbia, Canada.
Western Red Cedar (thuja plicata) is not a true cedar, which is to say it is not a member of the genus cedrus.
RNJ
True Western Red Cedar is actually in the Cypress family along with Hinoki, Lawson Cypress ( Port Orford Cedar) and Alaskan Yellow cedar AKA Nootka Cypress.
So it’s funny to me, we can have a flamenco guitar made and call it a Spruce / Cypress blanca or a Cypress / Cypress blanca if we’re being true to the botanical classification!
Now I’m curious why we have these misnamed woods. Was it due to commercial marketing of the lumber or settlers who were bad at botanical ID?
We could also technically have an East Indian rosewood back & sides guitar with a cypress top, aka Cedar.
The cedar of Lebanon cedrus lebani are protected and you can’t get them. But they are a true cedar. All the other guitar top woods we casually refer to as cedar and cypresses. The ‘cedars of Lebanon’ were subject to deforestation by the late dynastastic periods of Egypt over 2500 years ago.
Thanks for the video, Mark. It's nice to hear the guitar and to become a little acquainted with Hamish, the bog oak supplier.
In a different video Southwell mentions that from early in his career he has studied and copied older instruments. He says he particularly liked the 19th-century Viennese guitars of Stauffer, and tried to incorporate some of their charactistics into his personal model.
Matanya Ophee (RIP) the musicologist and publisher had a couple of Stauffers, which he praised highly. I heard him play one of them.
I tend to hear some Stauffer brilliance and clarity in Durrant's instrument, as well as the bog oak sound he and Southwell talk about.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread