need help indentifying a guitar

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FrankieTheKid

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan. 7 2009

need help indentifying a guitar

hi people,
i was referred here by someone at a different forum. i'm hoping you might be able to help me identify this guitar.
i bought it (used) back in the late '70's. the label was removed, so i never knew what brand it was, who made it, or what it's worth (if anything at all). just wondering if anybody here can help me identify it by any of the usual characteristics. i remember the person i bought it from said it was given to him by his mother. so i don't even know how old it is. a guess would be circa 1975(?) any help will be much appreciated.
thanks.
frank

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2009 19:17:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

Thats a difficult one Frankie

Have you tried looking inside it with a mirror to se if something has been written inside the box.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2009 23:16:28

Guest

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

hi frankie, i couldnt say what maker but it looks like it could be a good one. How is the sound, weight, action etc?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 0:16:20

FrankieTheKid

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan. 7 2009

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

thanks!!
the only visible markings are on the crossmember on the soundboard inside the sound hole:
9 4 0
the 9 is bigger than the 4 and 0. the numbers are in ink, "rubber stampish".
other than that, there's notheing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 3:44:20

FrankieTheKid

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan. 7 2009

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

weight is light, nice balance.
many compliments over the years on sound, deep rich bass, nice clear treble.
intonation is nice.
neck is straight as an arrow.
action is a little high, but plays nice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 5:45:27

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

Hi FranckieTheKid: The Images you provide need be clearer. However a few shorthand observations based on the available degree of clarity:

(i) From the reflection, it appears it is a “lacquered” guitar (as opposed to a finer finish, such as French polish);
(ii) The fret-board has [but I could be wrong] a reddish tone, suggesting it is rosewood (rather than the better choice, ebony);
(iii) The Pegs, are not nicely finished, the tips are plain wood without the prettier and recurrent inlay decoration;

These three aspects would suggest that it maybe a student, or economy model.

One could also observe, but it is simply speculative in nature, that the label appears to have been deliberately removed.
Perhaps someone did not want to show who made it and where.

The rosette, reminds me a bit of the Francisco Navarro’s guitar (which I happen to cherish as a great practice instruments).

On the opposite side, you have a little carving on the headstock, which I have not seen, of recently, not a very complex woodwork, nonetheless original and distinctive. The head "crown" does not fit any of the guitars i obsessivelly enjoy reviewing on the various sites... but some makers change those often, particularly on instruments not representative of their work.

I could be completely wrong. But my take is that this is a student model blanca.

Finally the 1st and 6th string should be restrung to turn clockwise, and opposite the other strings.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 6:07:36

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

(i) From the reflection, it appears it is a “lacquered” guitar (as opposed to a finer finish, such as French polish);
(ii) The fret-board has [but I could be wrong] a reddish tone, suggesting it is rosewood (rather than the better choice, ebony);

gj, you bring up some interesting points. If you can tell a lacquer finish over a French polish finish just by looking at it, then you need to teach me the secret. I've seen many FP finishes that are just as clear and shiny as lacquer.

In my opinion, rosewood is a better fingerboard than ebony. Rosewood is more stable. However, everyone wants a black fingerboard. This is just my opinion. I know this is also a personal preference. I'm constantly researching better alternative woods for fingerboards.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 8:24:14

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

In my opinion, rosewood is a better fingerboard than ebony. Rosewood is more stable. However, everyone wants a black fingerboard. This is just my opinion. I know this is also a personal preference. I'm constantly researching better alternative woods for fingerboards.

Hi Tom: we are all so influenced by standardized industry choices, and much of what we perceive is quite subjective and only in our mind. However, my humble appreciation concerning the choice of Ebony for the fretboard is its known and proven durability, unlike Rosewood, slightly "softer" and therefore more prone to wear.
I too like the looks and the feeling (again this could be only in my mind) of the Rosewood fingerboard, and like to think it is kinder to my left hand.

However, that choice of wood for the fret board is customarily associated with "cheaper" instruments (wouldn't you agree?)

As to the Laquer v. Franch.... i made several clear disclaimers, however, it seems quite and perhaps excessively shiny. Lighting, angle, picture, spiritual glow, each could explain it.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 8:47:03

FrankieTheKid

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan. 7 2009

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

thank you for all that info.
correct on all accounts:
laquer finish, rosewood fretboard. plain pegs.
pardon my ignorance, but does "blanca" refer to the sides and back of the guitar being blonde?
the design on the headstock seems more like it was done with a router rather than hand tooling. the terminations on the lines are rounded rather than pointed, and the design is also at a uniform depth. the design is also a little left of center on the headstock, and although symetrical, there are inconsistancies that wouldn't be characteristic of a computer-generated thing.

i'll swap the strings as you mentioned. i had it strung correctly years ago, but some "expert" in college told me that it caused stress in the wrong direction on the nut... that's college for ya :)
i wasn't expecting a ramirez miracle, i've just been wondering since i bought it.

what companies were producing student flamenco guitars? i know yamaha had a few classical models. it was suggested by that same college expert that it might be a "conrad".

the only other clue i have is - there is one corner of the lable left. it's a lilac purple:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 9:20:11

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

Hi Tom: we are all so influenced by standardized industry choices, and much of what we perceive is quite subjective and only in our mind. However, my humble appreciation concerning the choice of Ebony for the fretboard is its known and proven durability, unlike Rosewood, slightly "softer" and therefore more prone to wear.
I too like the looks and the feeling (again this could be only in my mind) of the Rosewood fingerboard, and like to think it is kinder to my left hand.

However, that choice of wood for the fret board is customarily associated with "cheaper" instruments (wouldn't you agree?)

As to the Laquer v. Franch.... i made several clear disclaimers, however, it seems quite and perhaps excessively shiny. Lighting, angle, picture, spiritual glow, each could explain it.

Yes, I agree, it's found a lot on cheaper student models. I like rosewood because it seems to be more stable during changes in climate. I'm speaking with experience from my own guitars. A lot of guitars I've had with ebony fingerboards shrink during the winter months and the fret ends poke out. Any rosewood fingerboard I have had has never done that. I have since started humidifying my cases and it has resolved the problem.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 9:46:26

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

quote:

frankiethekid wrote....what companies were producing student flamenco guitars? i know yamaha had a few classical models. it was suggested by that same college expert that it might be a "conrad".

I do not believe this is a large manufacturer's instrument. the "feel" is more that of a second or student line, by some small luthier's shop. How aged is the instrument?

Yes "blanca" describes the blonde choice of wood for back and sides, Cypress.

Purple lines are on the label of J. Ramirez' student models. but this does not seem one of its.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 10:48:41

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

(iii) The Pegs, are not nicely finished, the tips are plain wood without the prettier and recurrent inlay decoration;

These three aspects would suggest that it maybe a student, or economy model.

So does it mean that you consider my guitars to be student or economy guitars?

Its ok, I accept it. But please remember that little dots in the end of the peg doesnt nescessarily mean pretier. Its a matter of taste. Just like tie block inlays etc. Some think they are pretty. Others dont and fortunately we dont have to standartize or agree on anything.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 13:03:54

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

quote:

Yes, I agree, it's found a lot of cheaper student models. I like rosewood because it seems to be more stable during changes in climate. I'm speaking with experience from my own guitars. A lot of guitars I've had with ebony fingerboards shrink during the winter months and the fret ends poke out. Any rosewood fingerboard I have had has never done that. I have since started humidifying my cases and it has resolved the problem.

DeVoe has been recommending alternatives to ebony for several years, but it's a tough sell. He said the quality of ebony has gone down hill over the last few years. He has built guitars for Vicente Amigo with woods other than ebony.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 13:10:19

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

DeVoe has been recommending alternatives to ebony for several years, but it's a tough sell. He said the quality of ebony has gone down hill over the last few years. He has built guitars for Vicente Amigo with woods other than ebony.

I think there are a few good alternatives to ebony out there. I think the hard part is getting people to break from tradition.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 13:44:18

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

So does it mean that you consider my guitars to be student or economy guitars?
Its ok, I accept it. But please remember that little dots in the end of the peg doesnt nescessarily mean pretier. Its a matter of taste. Just like tie block inlays etc. Some think they are pretty. Others dont and fortunately we dont have to standartize or agree on anything.

Cam'n, not really Anders. Viewed as a whole the instrument shows details which in that context assume a certain value or meaning. Just like words do. I have not seen a close-up of your pegs, but in the contaxt of such wonderful instrument, they would inherit a different value.

I am referring to standardized expectations, all of which can and should be reviewed and revised from time to time. The good old ebony from Africa is no longer avalable, or quite rare -i read at LMI- for fretboards. Perhaps instead of insisting on a black ink fretboard, luthiers should make an effort to promote the quality of rosewood, as Tom is wisely suggesting.

Pegs... they have been revised... we now have tuning machines !!!

Edit: just visted your site (again) and could only peripherally admire your pegs. DO you carve your own? As silly a detail, those standard pegs with the inlay are identical but I am sure perceived by many as a "more expensive detail".... And the devil lurks right in those details.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 13:55:37

FrankieTheKid

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan. 7 2009

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

I do not believe this is a large manufacturer's instrument. the "feel" is more that of a second or student line, by some small luthier's shop. How aged is the instrument?

Yes "blanca" describes the blonde choice of wood for back and sides, Cypress.

Purple lines are on the label of J. Ramirez' student models. but this does not seem one of its.

i was trying to find a tactful way to say that, during the era of the tubes and blue oyster cult, why would a company mass produce a flamenco guitar? it wasn't among the more popular styles of the day ;)
so i'll agree with you on it probably not being put out by one of the large manufacturers.
as far as how aged it is?? i guessed earlier in the thread at about 1975... but that's just a guess. i bought the guitar sometime between 1976 and 1979. it looked relatively new when i bought it, one small ding in the soundboard, and very little, if any wear on the fingerboard.
if you meant "how has it aged?", i'd have to say, very nicely. it's the oldest guitar i own, and it's still in excellent condition.
it wasn't "purple lines" on the remaining corner of the label, the paper was purple, and there's a tiny bit of a black line on it, probably a piece of a border stripe.

not that i'm going to sell it, but i'm still wondering about a ballpark of what it might be worth, even if it were a second or student model... which it probably is.

any of you guys using purple labels???

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 15:54:14

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

Frankie, look at this head stock below from Pedro de Miguel, seems to have the same silhoutte as yours.

Also check LaFalseta Pedro De Migul 8f... similar rosette, isn't it. http://www.lafalseta.com/Pedro_de_Miguel_8F_Cipres.html

perhaps... Pedro de Miguel (Tom what do you think)

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 16:11:06

FrankieTheKid

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan. 7 2009

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

i feel like we just might be getting somewhere...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 17:09:11

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to gj Michelob)

I doubt it's a Pedro de Miguel. I don't know why but I get the feeling this is a Mexican made guitar. I could be wrong though. The stamped numbers, 9 4 0 could also be a clue that it is a factory guitar.

FrankieTheKid, did you buy this guitar in the US?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 17:40:41

FrankieTheKid

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan. 7 2009

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

I doubt it's a Pedro de Miguel. I don't know why but I get the feeling this is a Mexican made guitar. I could be wrong though. The stamped numbers, 9 4 0 could also be a clue that it is a factory guitar.

FrankieTheKid, did you buy this guitar in the US?

yes i did.... and i have a mexican-made fender telecaster, too.
i've been trying to get a picture of the 940 and rosette into a post all day... here we go again.
although similar to to the miguel, they're not the same. the crown on the headstock has a slightly rounded "plateau" between the two peaks also... again similar, but not the same.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 18:29:41

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

Whoever made this guitar did so "after" Pedro de Miguel" (PDM), or else the maker of your guitar and PDM both took inspiration from a common ground. The headstock outline is quite similar. I reviewed about 60 different makers (while soaking my left hand in hot water to heal my index) and PDM, and only PDM, shared the same sihloutte with FrankieTheKid's guitar.

The rosette too, although not identical has certain lines and patterns which resembles closely PDM
I too, as does Tom, felt originally that this could be a Mexican made, as it reminded me of the Francisco Navarro's collection (perhaps he could enlighten us, Tom?).

I would vote for: Mexican made, inspired by or "after" PDM. Cedar Top(?)

This was fun, thank you Frankie and Tom.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 19:09:28

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to gj Michelob)

To me, the head on Frankie's guitar looks nothing like the Pedro de Miguel. The PdM head is just a "generic" head design they use on their student models. Their signature head that is used on their 1a models is totally different.

The one gj posted is a "basic" head that a lot of makers use. It's closer to a Santos Hernandez head.

Frankie's head is a bit unique in it's shape and although some Spanish makers use carvings and ornamentations, I see more of this in Mexican made guitars.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 20:42:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

GJ, I wa joking and being serious at the same time.

Its always the overall look of a guitar that determines if its a 1A. Not the amount of little dots, Tie block inlays, extra purfling and an advanced mosaic rosettes.

If thats what people are looking for, then its just a matter of buying an expensive Spanish factory guitar. They are so overfilled with theese details that it looks cheasy and cheep.

The best example is the Violin. They are all the same exept a few variations in plantilla. Besides ornamentation etc. All the same.
Its not difficult to se or feel the difference between a quality build instrument and a cheap one. Its all in the energy of the instrument.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2009 23:04:16

FrankieTheKid

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan. 7 2009

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

To me, the head on Frankie's guitar looks nothing like the Pedro de Miguel. The PdM head is just a "generic" head design they use on their student models. Their signature head that is used on their 1a models is totally different.

The one gj posted is a "basic" head that a lot of makers use. It's closer to a Santos Hernandez head.

Frankie's head is a bit unique in it's shape and although some Spanish makers use carvings and ornamentations, I see more of this in Mexican made guitars.

here's a better picture of the headstock.
i really appreciate all the help here.
what i've learned is that, for the most part, most of the flamenco guitars aren't mass produced, and, trying to figure out which one of the multitude of luthiers put my guitar together, is getting to be the old "needle in the haystack".

i paid $35 for the guitar back around '76. did i get a deal? or is it a piece of junk?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2009 5:00:58

ngiorgio

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

Here is a similar or the same guitar for sale on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330298725881&indexURL=3&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

From one of the pix, it appears to not be constructed with an integral neck but with a dovetail joint. My guess would be made in Japan from the 70's. There were quite a few cedar topped flamencos imported by various USA distributors during that period. Some had solid cypress B&S and many were built with laminated B&S. I believe that Mediterranean cypress was used on the solid and yellow cedar on the laminated.

So, check indside to see how the neck is joined to the body. Some of these guitars can be quite good. I owned one made by Kazuo Yairi for the Alvarez line of guitars distributed by the St. Louis Music Company in the 70's.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2009 5:40:42

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to ngiorgio)

Good to see you here, NGiorgio, 'looks like you nailed it.

Frankie is that your Guitar on e-bay?

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2009 6:57:08

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to ngiorgio)

That has to be the same guitar on ebay. What are the odds that there are two guitars like this without labels? The auction says it could be a Jose Ramirez but I don't see anything on this guitar that would indicate it could be a Ramirez.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2009 7:43:18

ngiorgio

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

quote:

That has to be the same guitar on ebay. What are the odds that there are two guitars like this without labels? The auction says it could be a Jose Ramirez but I don't see anything on this guitar that would indicate it could be a Ramirez.

If you look closly, Frankie's guitar seems to have a different grain on the headplate and it also looks a bit more banged up.

A Ramirez, I don't think so.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2009 8:20:44

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to ngiorgio)

I have to agree, I think it may be Japanese in origin. I recently picked up a Juan Orozco flamenco, cypress with a cedar top and it appears it was made in the early 70's i'm guessing, and it looks very much like this instrument. Mine has gears not peg's but it is light as a feather and has a wonderful muy flamenco sound!! It has the label "Juan Orozco Luthier" plus a ink mark with Ryoji Matsuoka. I also had the opportunity to play a Yairi Flamenco from the same time period and it too, was a very nice instrument...
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2009 8:58:13

FrankieTheKid

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan. 7 2009

RE: need help indentifying a guitar (in reply to FrankieTheKid)

if you think that's banged up, you should see my steel string ;)... i guess it means it's not just a piece of furniture.
here's my take on my guitar and the one on e-bay:
seeing that the guitars are just about identical, and both have had the labels removed, i'd be willing to bet that the guitars were manufactured with a label that involved some sort of copyright infringement. the labels were removed and the line of guitars might have been sold to a chain store like zayre or bradlees as student guitars.
what do you think?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2009 9:15:46