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Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to srshea)
I think, and maybe I presume too much, that Anders was thinking more of the appearance of the guitar. When it's viewed sitting in a stand, or from a seat in an audience, or from an uploaded pic, most of the details you just mentioned, while certainly the real art, can't be perceived. And even in the hands of many people, those finer details might still go unnoticed and unappreciated.
But, visually, the head and the rosette are kind of like an autograph with a flourish.
I know I see the pics and think, "Ooh! Shiny! And look at the doo-hickies! Wow!"
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
Art has and will never be perfect. Because when it is so, its not art anymore and a true artist should find something else to do.
I respectfully disagree Anders. The art is in the playing not the making. Building guitars is a craft, there's no more art involved in it than than there is in any other craft. Art is word that should be restricted to the real thing, music, visual arts and literature. By the way, what's wrong with being a craftsman? They're much more rare than musicians.
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Ricardo)
This thread’s departed for its original intents, but in doing so has brought about two interesting issues concerning guitar building, one of art-theory and one of marketing strategy:
(i) Anders has undoubtedly marked a fine point by insisting that he derives immense artistic pleasure and pride by making his own rosette; yet Tom Blackshear has articulated perhaps an even finer and more ascetic paradigm, that the art of a lutheir lays exclusively in the “sound” of his instruments, rather than in any other visible part. A bit the spiritual concept that “beauty isn’t in what you eyes can see, but what your soul perceives” [St. Augustine].
While both points of view have merit, both must face certain marketing consequences:
(ii) I quote Ricardo’s statement, also because I know we all respect his views as expressed by a knowledgeable and gifted musician and fair critic, after all.
quote:
I have never picked a guitar for it's looks, and certainly not the rosette.
I do not believe that Ricardo may truly declare himself as immune to cosmetic characteristics of a guitar, as he did above. While none of us will probably ever buy a guitar solely and exclusively on “looks”, we all are attracted by certain makers (brands)’ notoriety and expected quality of which we are assured by their distinctive marks. In Ricardo’s case particularly, I had noticed when I first watched his promotional video for Madera Sonora [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH3n1gm9Sc4&feature=channel_page ] how he cherishes the beauty of his instruments; it seems so obvious to me that he enjoys the color, fashion and garb of each instrument, Sanchis Carpio or Conde, the orange guitar handsomely matched with the most exquisite cejilla, displayed with pride and true admiration. Since I am a great fan of his music, I am in turn greatly influenced by his choices, and while promoting his CD –which I love- he also promoted Conde and Sanchis, along with a peculiar perspective in viewing guitars, that they be “also” aesthetically gratifying.
[believe it or not I bought my Conde based on Ricardo’s videos, and am quite attracted by an orange/red Sanchis Carpio for the same reason. In my humble opinion, Ricardo is hands-down the most talented flamenco composer and musician in the United States, and perhaps –at least on ipod playlist- up there with Amigo, Tomatito and Nunez. May be you should adopt Jim Opfer’s habit to subtitle your video with a description of the guitar you are playing, Ricardo, and get endorsements value (?)].
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to gj Michelob)
Hola
My favourite design is the butterfly design rosette which is, or was available from Barber. Why? because it was on my Gerundino when I bought it? No, just that I like butterflies. I bought another of these rosettes (It cost something like 300 pesetas) so that my friend Rafael could build me a guitar of arce rizado.
Let us not forget that the "rosette", along with the internal reinforcements, is there to compensate for the weakness in the tapa of a great big hole.
Compare the guitars of Jeronimo Peña, where sound is sacrificed for aesthetics such as an intricately carved ebony bridge, with the austerity of masters such as Reyes or Gerundino, whose guitars are prized for their sound.
If you like this kind of adornment, which was standard on early instruments by Pages etc., then the hand made rosette at least does not damage the sound, unlike some adornos. Personally I would not pay extra to have it, but see no reason why it should not be an option, for those who wish to commision a personal guitar.
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
Personally, I like to make things as perfect as possible in all of the guitar's functions.
Tom, I basically agree on what you say. The difference is in that I´m not capable of calling a factory made rosette for perfect. It doesnt have the appeal to me.
John Shelton: We discussed if guitarmakers are artists a year ago or so. And we both agreed on that we are not artists but craftsmen or artesans. What I´ve been trying to say is that IMHO, the only place where you can actually do something which is art making a guitar is in the rosette and the headstock.
The building of the guitar is the building of a tool that we use for making art. Just like a chisel in the hand of a sculptur. And I also agree that the guitar with the finest handmade artistic rosette will never have a value for a musician if it doesnt sound and play well.
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jshelton5040
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
Art has and will never be perfect. Because when it is so, its not art anymore and a true artist should find something else to do.
I respectfully disagree Anders. The art is in the playing not the making. Building guitars is a craft, there's no more art involved in it than than there is in any other craft. Art is word that should be restricted to the real thing, music, visual arts and literature. By the way, what's wrong with being a craftsman? They're much more rare than musicians.
John, would you allow me to have a little thought about this issue concerning voicing an instrument?
When it comes to tonal adjustments; the plain and simple fact is that the final top adjustments play the most important role in every guitar. This is where in my opinion, the builder's own ability is apparent, as the tone of each guitar is highly dependent upon his/her intuitive skills.
The idea is too bring everything in the top to a harmonious conclusion. Voice, balance, volume, and have it characteristically sensual to the ear. This is not an easy feat. It requires a dedicated and skillful hand to accomplish. If it were a matter of teaching this process so that every guitar would have the same tone, then it would be known more as a science, rather than an ART. Since intuition plays a major role in voicing instruments, it stands to reason that the great accomplishment in this area would be to gather enough skills to make each guitar speak with its own voice in a refined manner.
I know that once I construct the guitar, there is a final coming together with "The maker and his instrument." The final tuning technique for the top has become completely intuitive for me, and I believe this is where it becomes Art.
Building a guitar is considered a craft but ART should always be in the forefront of any musical instrument that is made with dedication and love. And I believe that although it is considered a craft to build, it takes just as much art to make it the extension of the builder's creationary skills.
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
Building a guitar is considered a craft but ART should always be in the forefront of any musical instrument that is made with dedication and love.
... and perhaps that is why the word ART is the root of its corollary...Artisan. The latter includes the former when building functional (eg Guitars) objects with "dedication and love" along with that unique genius of originality that discriminates art from mere good will.
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to gj Michelob)
quote:
I do not believe that Ricardo may truly declare himself as immune to cosmetic characteristics of a guitar, as he did above. While none of us will probably ever buy a guitar solely and exclusively on “looks”, we all are attracted by certain makers (brands)’ notoriety and expected quality of which we are assured by their distinctive marks.
Just catching up on this thread. Aesthetic considerations are important to me and I don't see how a fine guitar can't be that in every respect. Not to suggest for a minute that the sound and playability fall in deference to workmanship, it's just that high quality means high quality in every respect.
I've got quite extreme likes and dislikes. I hate to see a shallow head stock angle to the neck. Just looks cheap and nasty if it's too flat. I can't explain why but to me it's in the same order of wrongs as thick treacle varnish finish.
John Gilbert no doubt made very fine classical guitars and always seemed to be inventing and improving but how on earth could he decide to have a rossette made with straight bits joined together like a big crude cave man attempt to invent the wheel? It just shouts out so badly. I could never bring myself to have a guitar with a rosette like that no matter how good it was. Strange but true.
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to gj Michelob)
quote:
it seems so obvious to me that he enjoys the color, fashion and garb of each instrument, Sanchis Carpio or Conde, the orange guitar handsomely matched with the most exquisite cejilla, displayed with pride and true admiration.
Well I chose the guitars for sound and feel, not looks. Somedays that bright orange is a bit much on the eyes. But Cejillas, yes I admit I did choose all the ones I have bought for their looks alone.
Here is one of my favorite guitars for sound and feel, but it has lots of cosmetic problems. Finish over the rosette, uneven lacquer, dryness cracks in the lacquer, a "baby" 19th fret, imperfect head cut design, some dark knot looking spots in the cypress, etc. But I love it! And the cejilla I like too, but for it's looks.
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to jshelton5040)
I believe that guitar making is in fact, an "art". I have a strong art background and a strong love and respect for fine art. Began studing art as a boy and got my degree in art.
What I have come to learn since falling in love with art is that art is anything you create from nothing. Anything. Some will disagree but I truly believe this. A painter takes a blank canvas and some paints, and creates a painting. That is art. A sculpter take a slab of marble and some chisels, and makes a sculpture. That is art. A guitarists, takes his guitar, puts together some notes, and makes a song. that is art. A guitarrero, takes a pile of wood and makes a guitar out of it. That is art. You can call the guitar a tool but I will call it art. Tools are things craftsmen use to make art.
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Here is one of my favorite guitars for sound and feel, but it has lots of cosmetic problems. Finish over the rosette, uneven lacquer, dryness cracks in the lacquer, a "baby" 19th fret, imperfect head cut design, some dark knot looking spots in the cypress, etc. But I love it! And the cejilla I like too, but for it's looks.
Ricardo
ok... now that you trashed this great sounding ugly th'ng... what is it?
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to gj Michelob)
quote:
ok... now that you trashed this great sounding ugly th'ng... what is it?
My guess.............a Conde from the Atocha shop and not the 'media luna' head but the traditional Esteso style head. By the way, that falseta kicks! Gotta learn that.
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to TANúñez)
I don't know why you guys are so picky. You can get a REALLY fancy flamingo guitar from Estaban for $200 along with a whole set of DVD lessons from the Master himself!
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Exitao)
In Danish we have a division between "Kunst" and "Brugskunst"
Kunst is art, Brugskunst is art made to be used. A guitarmaker would fall in the second category. Together with pottery et. Dont forget that the word art (kunst) is part of the name brugskunst.
In Spanish the same: Art (Artista, the one who work art) and artesan (artesano, the one who work brugsknst). And again you have the word art in the name.
I consider myself and other guitarmakers to be Artesanos and we make "brugskunst" (Art made to be used).
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to gj Michelob)
quote:
ORIGINAL: gj Michelob
quote:
Here is one of my favorite guitars for sound and feel, but it has lots of cosmetic problems. Finish over the rosette, uneven lacquer, dryness cracks in the lacquer, a "baby" 19th fret, imperfect head cut design, some dark knot looking spots in the cypress, etc. But I love it! And the cejilla I like too, but for it's looks.
Ricardo
ok... now that you trashed this great sounding ugly th'ng... what is it?
1973 Sobrinos de Esteso, Gravina 7. signed in blue ink "Conde Hermanos".
This is about the fifth time this person has put this guitar up for auction. He might actually let it go this time. It would be nice to pick this $12,500 guitar up for $3,500.
Rose rosettes I don't like--the ones with a lot of roses. From a distance they look like strawberries.
Anders wrote: yiiiiiikkkes.... Thats a horrible rosette. About the worst factorymade piece of kitch nightmare I´ve ever seen
uh oh... I will hide behind a thick "de gustibus non est disputandum" (taste is not negotiable). that is my rosette on my "holy grail" the af/25 r Spr/Braz. I love that rosette too. It is and has been for a long time now, Conde's most distincitve mark along with the media luna head. both copied ad nauseam by many out there. Yet I see where Anders is coming from, as his rosettes are informed to a purer minimalist approach. This is unquestionably in immediate contradiction with your standard.
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Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
If it's Brazilian Rosewood why does it say Caviuna on the label?
a sharp and perspicacious observation, Jshelton:
Conde Hermanos bills the instrument as Madacascar Rosewood [see http://www.condehermanos.com/portadai.htm ], which apparently is described by the term "Caviuna"; I understand that this maybe a labelling practice to "overcome' the CITES restrictions on imporatation into the US of endangered spieces, of which -as you know better than i probably- Brazilian Rosewood is part, along with pythons and alligators' skins.
If you some doubts, you are sharing mine. However, i bought the guitar because it sounds and feels "magic", and not really on account of any other details such as the wood selection or the name, which at the time in fact -along with the dear price- sort of deterred me from purchasing it. But, it is my Holy Grail, whether it is or not Brazilian, or was exported upon a questionable bill of lading.
Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to gj Michelob)
A German online resource defines Caviuna as synonym for Chingchan Madagascar Rosewood Eastindian RW Eastindia Satinwood Rio RW (i. e. Brasilian RW) San Domingo RW Santos RW (=palo santo)
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Exitao)
I have always been told that Caviuna was from South America. Also that its a name being used on a lot of woods where many are not rosewoods
Its part of the "Spanish cheat". Using Caviuna or Jacaranda and selling it as Braz rosewood. Its NOT Braz rosewood and has a very different taptone. Its also a lot cheaper. Its pretty though. The guitar on the Conde website does NOT look like its been made with Madagascar, but it could be Caviuna
I dont specially see my own rosettes as minimalistic. But maybe its because I cant judge them myself.
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Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
I dont specially see my own rosettes as minimalistic. But maybe its because I cant judge them myself.
It is a beautiful rosette you make, Anders. I only meant to say that you do not indulge in fancy colors, patterns and designs but keep it at a minimum, such as olive tree wood mosaic, where natural shades provide the texture and pattern. I realize now that it seemed an attmpt to categorize your art (we determined it is i believe) as minimalist or abstract or other.... i should have stopped at "pure".
As to the back and side of my "Caviuna" Conde Hermanos, don't you think this is brazilian or madagascar?
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Exitao)
Anders, that look is really appealing to me.
I don't think unique visuals come at a cost of other qualities. A guitar maker creating his own designs for rosettos/tieblock, despite it being an uneconomical, time consuming undertaking is likely to be an artisan who also works hard on EVERY OTHER aspect of the instrument. Ultimately, it might not even be so uneconomical, if the look becomes associated with quality instruments, and a passion for the craft.
I'm sure there are many really ugly instruments that sound and play fantastic. But i wouldn't risk ordering a guitar from someone with a taste in visuals too far from my own, even if the visuals would be made to my own specifications. What's to say the difference in taste doesn't apply more generally.
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