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A new PdL on its way   You are logged in as Guest
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Rob

Posts: 60
Joined: Apr. 26 2004
 

A new PdL on its way 

Life is strange.

I have been trying to sell my Panormo copy by Simon Ambridge privately for some time now (3,500 pounds new - an expensive guitar). Today I phoned a respected guitar seller to see if he could sell it for me. He said ''No, but I can take it in part exchange for a PdL 1A Blanca'' (we had been discussing flamenco). Hmm. I was not looking for a top end flamenco model... But this offer is worth considering - my unsellable Panormo copy plus 1,000 pounds is the deal, in return for a guitar which (although undoubtedly overpriced) would be an excellent guitar for 1,000 pounds, and one that I should have no problem selling in the future should I wish to.

I've asked the guy to send it up for me to look at. The 1A is signed in ink by Paco. The 2A has a printed signature. There are only 200 copies of the blanca 1A (and 200 of the Negra 1A). The regular price is 3,700 pounds.

I'll make my own mind up, of course, but am interested in what you guys think. But after hearing what Ron can coax out of a 600 pounds Bernal... But this deal is more complicated than just buying a good flamenco, I also get to unload my Ambridge Panormo.

Life is certainly strange.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2004 19:10:13
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

What a shame to get rid of the Panormo... have you talked to rudy on the FT forum? He likes to spend his money on nice guitars.

In regard to the PDL, I own a Vicente Carillo blanca. From what I understand this is almost exactly the same guitar as the PDL (same luthier); supposedly the woods are more choice and the rosette is different.

This is an excellent guitar, actually one of the best I have played. The tone is robust and strong, the highs are notably beautiful and strident. It is a flamenco guitar and sounds like one.

The neck is a bit wide for my taste and even after a year and a half of playing it, I have never fully adjusted to it. But that is without a capo. With a capo, it is fine. If you plan to play with dancers this is not the guitar for you, it can't really handle high-powered rasgeaudos; it's a solo guitarist's guitar. The way it is set up, the action is low and fast, although there is little room for the basses.

Most people who try my guitar think that it's "fast", and they all like the highs. The reactions I have gotten from other guitarists range from mildly positive to ecstatic. Everyone thinks that it is one of the best guitars for the price (approximately $2500 US).

It is not the holy grail for me, but it is nice and would be hard to replace. My only gripes are that I feel it is a bit difficult for the left hand, and is also heavier than I like a flamenco guitar to be.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2004 19:26:40
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

Rob,
I think that sounds too much of a deal in their favour IMO.
£1000 is a lot of money + a good guitar as well?
I would reckon not.
I know you're going to be unhappy in the long run.
The "Paco de Lucia", signed or not ain't gonna make you play any better.
I know that and you know that.
Ain't no short cuts. LOL!
I can't understand....what was wrong with the Bellido you had in Dundee?
I thought it was a great guitar.
Lovely "aire", the way you played some stuff.
Jim's Bernal that he sold me is a nice guitar, and I must admit I had the expertise of Jim to filter out all the other guitars he heard on that trip to Spain and choose that particular one.
But when I first acquired it, it felt so different and difficult to play in comparison with my old, trusty Brazilian one that I only played it every now and then.
Everything I played on it sounded terrible, unfamiliar and "out of control".
But I decided to put the Brazilian one down and start to get to know the Bernal.
Like I told you on the phone, "All well made guitars sound great, it's only when you start to put your fingers on the strings that they can sound crap LOL!
Now I have a positive attitude to the Bernal and it's opening up to me and giving me a glimpse of the sunshine of the mountains behind Jerez, where she was born.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2004 21:04:21
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

When I was in Sevilla, due to a scheduling problem I had a week of time to kill, and I took private lessons with Dutch guitarist Tino van der Smaan (yes I traveled to Spain...to take lessons from a Dutch). He told me that my guitar sounded good when I played him some alegrias. I said yes I was very happy with the guitar. Then he told me a story about the famous violinist, people kept wondering if his violin was Strad, it sounded so good. The violinst held the instrument to his ear, pretended to listen intently. "Sounds good? I don't hear anything at all!"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2004 22:21:46
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Exactly Mike,
I bet Tomatito could blow the room away with my "student" Bernal!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2004 22:43:19
 
Rob

Posts: 60
Joined: Apr. 26 2004
 

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Rob,

I know you're going to be unhappy in the long run.

Ron


No you don't. I might be very happy. I might not be. The point is that I will have a guitar that I will be able to sell (should I want to) whereas at the moment I have a guitar I can't sell. It may cost me more initially, but I will make money on it eventually. But this is not the way to make decisions about a guitar. I'll see what it is like when it arrives tomorrow (Thursday) and if it inspires me, then I'll go for it. If not, I won't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

I can't understand....what was wrong with the Bellido you had in Dundee?
I thought it was a great guitar.

Ron


It was/is a Burguet, and my friend Gordon has agreed to buy it for 500 quid. That means I only pay out 500 for the PdL. But, we shall see...

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 6:15:43
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

Rob,
I suppose if the Classical guitar is no good to you and it's been difficult finding a buyer then that does sway the issue a bit, but that's an awful amount of money for a guitar.
I'll be really interested to hear what it sounds like.
I'd want it to play itself for that kind of dough!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 8:00:37
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob
It was/is a Burguet, and my friend Gordon has agreed to buy it for 500 quid. That means I only pay out 500 for the PdL. But, we shall see...
Rob


If your friend changes his mind on buying your Burguet, could you let me know, please?

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 14:48:33
 
Rob

Posts: 60
Joined: Apr. 26 2004
 

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Jon Boyes

OK Jon.
Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 16:11:12
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

Ron, it kind of makes me wonder why you're so anti-guitar. I'm sure hunters all love to commiserate about their shotguns or crossbows or whatever they use. I agree FT-style guitar talk is annoying, people with multiple $6,000 guitars justifying the practice by saying that at least they aren't Using these priceless pieces which should be preserved by people who can't play worth a damn.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 17:01:22
 
Escribano

Posts: 6305
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Isn't Ron agreeing with you? Nothing wrong with a nice guitar if you can afford it, but there is so much technique to be learnt that a decent student guitar should suffice for years.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 17:29:03
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Mike,
I'm not "anti guitar", it's just that I think guitar building follows a logarithmic law, or the law of diminishing returns as in much of engineering.
Once you get to a "carefully and expertly built" guitar level, thereafter you don't get a guitar that's twice as "good" for twice the price or three times as "good" for three times the price.
I'm pretty sure Aaron or the other luthiers would agree with me on that.
What you pay for are marginally better materials and mainly the Luthier spending twice or three times the time in making a guitar that's better in his expert opinion.
Which is fair enough.
Everybody should be paid for their time, I have no problem with that.
Also guitar dealers have to make a living as well.
It's a slow trade. It's not as if they are selling pizzas or hamburgers or stuff like that.
So guitars have to be marked up to pay for the premises, staff, heating, lighting etc.
So I'm definitely not saying that high priced guitars are in any way a ripoff.
What I am saying is that a very expensive guitar will not improve you're playing by very much if you already have a decent guitar to begin with.
The higher your technical skill, the more demanding you will be in the finer points of feel and sound, especially if you are using the guitar to do concerts and make recordings.
But in the same way as a successful rock star can buy a Ferrari, a beginner can buy an Aaron Green 1a or Manuel Reyes 1a.
Aaron's interest in life and livelihood is in building the finest guitars, but he's hardly going to chuck some rich spotty young beginner with $5000 in his sweaty paw out of his shop because he was looking for a "Flamingo Guitar just like Jose Feliciano"... is he?
No businessperson would.
There are lots of guitarists who could make my student Bernal truly sing.
So the problem is with me, not the guitar.
So that's where I try to focus my attention.
However if you're a student and can afford an expensive guitar, then I say go for it.
There are a lot worse things you can spend your money on.


cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 20:58:48
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I'm sure hunters all love to commiserate about their shotguns or crossbows or whatever they use


A number of years ago an Engineer friend of mine went to an "invitation only" Military Arms conference in London.
He said it was like the ad's you see on TV for washing up liquid etc except the were running commercials promoting the fact that the DGX4 fragmentation bomb had up to three times the kill factor of " just ordinary" fragmentation bombs, and pin striped suited salesmen were running around handing out brochures to everyone showing that the lethal "cone of fire" of their latest "theatre" weapon was two degrees broader than their nearest competitor, achieving up to 20 percent more leathal or significant disabling injuries etc.
He said it was like a crazy factory in a bad dream, he'd never seen anything like it.

LOL!

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 21:48:04
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

Wow, that's pretty sick.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 22:01:13
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

Ron,

By the way, I haven’t had a chance to say I really like the tone you are getting with the new recording equipment.

I have to agree fully with your assessment of spending more for very little gain. When I was a kid, I was somewhat into good stereo equipment. That gives you an idea of how old I am, when I refer to it as "stereo equipment". What I found was I could put together a very good system for around a $1,000. But I had to spend a couple thousand more to hear any negligible increase in quality. At that time some folks were spending $10,000 for top of the line equipment that would be in the $100,000 range now days.

The fact is, you could line up a hundred people and very few of them could tell the difference between the $1,000 gear versus the $10,000.

That being said, do I, or any of us need-world class guitars? Other than a couple of us (I am not one of them), I certainly say no! But the reality is, I own a top of the line Tezanos Perez Negra. Aaron is building me a blanca and I am on DeVoe's short list. Do I have visions that these wonderful instruments will magically improve my playing? Absolutely not. So why am I doing it? First off, because I can and second, because I want to.

I look at guitar collecting for what it is. To me it’s a separate hobby from guitar playing. I enjoy the buying and selling of fine guitars apart from playing. Maybe that’s the horse trader in me.

Pat
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2004 22:56:17
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

Patrick,
I have played one guitar that seemed really special to me, that was Keith Vizcarra's first flamenco. It was a small bodied guitar, fairly old, and felt and sounded wonderful! No other guitar has spoken to me like this. I wonder, do you think this is because it was a great guitar particularly, or because for whatever reason it fit some ideal or randomly struck a chord in me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2004 0:53:02
 
eslastra

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Patrick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrick

So why am I doing it? First off, because I can and second, because I want to.

I look at guitar collecting for what it is. To me it’s a separate hobby from guitar playing. I enjoy the buying and selling of fine guitars apart from playing. Maybe that’s the horse trader in me.

Pat

Patrick,

I usually avoid these types of discussions, but since you said something that I can really relate with, I'd thought I'd throw my 2 centavos. I've played guitar all my life, different styles, different types, and I've had them all in my small collection. I enjoy the pride of ownership that comes with it all. I love the things, I play the heck out of them, and have met a great many good friends through them. Why would I stop such a good thing in life, short of losing the means to do so? And if that misfortune were to happen, I'm confident that I could get back a great portion of my investment, if not all. BTW, my new DeVoe negra is in construction as we speak.

Okay, time to jump off my soapbox.

_____________________________

Eddie Lastra
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2004 2:13:42
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

quote:

I wonder, do you think this is because it was a great guitar particularly, or because for whatever reason it fit some ideal or randomly struck a chord in me.


Miguel,

I think without a doubt, it struck a chord in you. We all have a view of what is or is not the perfect guitar. The next guy that played that same guitar may have a totally different view than you. I think it may be an issue of experience as well. I look for characteristics in guitars that I didn't in the past.

Pat
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2004 17:30:56
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Rob

quote:

BTW, my new DeVoe negra is in construction as we speak.


So let's look at the numbers. Eddie; three De Voe's, Patrick; zero De Voe's! Now I know what kind of a friend you are! At least you could have let me go ahead of you. LOL

When you get the new one, I really do want to take you up on the invitation. BTW, Aaron Green and I are trying to arrange our schedules for the Stenson Beach house this summer. It would be cool to get you, Ted and Dimitri to join us for a day. I'll let you know if it comes together.

Pat
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2004 17:40:09
 
eslastra

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA

RE: A new PdL on its way (in reply to Patrick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrick


BTW, Aaron Green and I are trying to arrange our schedules for the Stenson Beach house this summer. It would be cool to get you, Ted and Dimitri to join us for a day. I'll let you know if it comes together.

Pat


Hey that's cool! Keep us posted. Summers on Stinson beach are nice.

_____________________________

Eddie Lastra
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2004 19:49:42
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