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Vicentes POETA
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Vicentes POETA (in reply to XXX)
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its a fine question and no reason why anyone would be offended... well its a pretty natural collaboration.....i think..they highlight eachother well..a guitar has never sounded so beautiful and crisp then after an orchestral passage...and a orchestra has never sounded so powerful and solemn then after a soft guitar passage...just two extremes that happen to mix beautifully togheder and i disagree..Vicente, Paco, Gerardo have been very succesfull imo, depending on how you judge it..to me the music has been a succes..for me atlist on my cd player at the end of the day...thank god they dont allow theyr ideas to be curved by what we or "the flamencos" want..i respect so much people with cojones big enough to be themselfs and listen to themselfs againt outside pressure and expectation..people with convictions about theyr own taste creativity would die...because we all just wanna hear stuff we are familiar with, songs with words we know, catchy familliar tunes if it wasent for "young punks" beeing disrespectfull to music we would all still be listening to Elvis and the Beatles who ofcourse were themselfs at one point described the young punks with disrespect for music .....someone needs to push us and force us to expend our horizonts...expecially flamencos.. Every generation tries to control it and make it halt at theyr level of understanding but ofcourse that never works because there will never stop beeing young people who wanna add a litlle of themselfs into it and take it theyr own way ...(and creativity is public domain is theyr birth right ) i dont want anybody to listen to me on how they should play when i am 60, 70, 80 because i am just going to try and make then conform to me instead of me adjusting my ears and trying to conform to them....come to think of it i dont want anybody to listen to me now...nothing besides technical stuff, i dont wanna listen to someone playing my ideas..i wanna hear theyrs etc... we all pick a era we like and are comfortable with and stay there... i might not like and get all the experiments, i might even winge sometimes but i am certainly glad they are happening..thats art Oh Deniz..i kind of got sidetracked (for something different ) talking about taste and creativity in general, i often think about things like that...I dont mean to suggest anything that reflects on you...just personal , general views on things..i am not suggesting anything..
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Date Nov. 26 2008 12:31:32
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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RE: Vicentes POETA (in reply to Stu)
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Oh man, what an album! It's one of my absolute favorites (and I love all of Vicente's music, but to compare Poeta to, say, Ciudad or Vivencias is just unfair). I remember the first time I heard it, it was in the background while I was doing work, and I was just blown away...I went to dinner a changed man . I've thought a lot about this whole flamenco/classical fusion thing, so before my rant, here's full disclosure: I'm a complete sucker for a lush orchestration. Kind of my thing. So there. That explains why every time I listen to "Poeta en el Mar" or "Poeta en el Viento" on that album, I'm completely blown away - that piece really isn't flamenco in any meaningful way, what makes it great is the heavy element of Romantic orchestral music, with a bit of Vicente thrown in for fun. This kind of gets down to just why the classical/flamenco fusion is so damn tricky - classical music and flamenco music are by and large extremely divergent ways of approaching music. Gustavo Montesano's "Flamenco Fantasy", where he does classical standards "aflamencao", is an awesome album but very very little of it is truly flamenco. Classical music, for the most part, is about achieving music (achieving beauty, emotional transcendence, whatever music is about - I think classical and flamenco actually aim at the same thing, whatever it is) through planned structure and rigidity. By setting the terms of the music beforehand, it allows for the music to be taken to a damn near transcendent level, whether through the use of an enormous orchestra to just pull the music up (like a Mahler symphony) or through extremely intricate harmonization (like a Bach fugue). Flamenco achieves music (despite its structural rigidity) through unadulterated outburst of raw emotion, through fluidity and spontaneity, through improvisation. Of course, at the same time it necessarily loses some of the grandeur that one gets in classical music by requiring fewer people, and less music planned out in advance. So getting these two things together seems extremely difficult. They want to get to the same place but they have extremely different means for achieving it. I've been thinking over the classical/flamenco "fusion" I have, and the only example that strikes me as achieving this balance well (and even this one gives me some pause) is my other favorite song from "Poeta", the guajira at the end. I'm still not sure exactly how (or even if) it goes about achieving the balance, but I think it has something to do with the way the orchestra plays its role, sometimes acting like a good larger-than-life classical orchestra, but very often using its prescripted grandeur to sound flamenco, to sound as if it is light and free right along with Vicente's guitar. If anyone else has any other recommendations for good flamenco with orchestration, I'd love to hear!
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Date Nov. 26 2008 13:57:25
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Vicentes POETA (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian Even tho Poeta has some flamenco in it I dont think it was the genra he was aiming for, I think it was a calculated and deliberate step outside certain boundries..perhaps he was testing new markets, looking to appeal to a wider audience outside flamenco, or just wanted to work with an orchestra or was inspired by some poems...I really dont know....but obviously he wanted to step outside the flamenco restrictions for this album.. this is not really a question of how flamenco the album is or isnt..the amount of flamencones was deliberate..one either likes it or he dosent, fair enough...but one could miss out on a awful lot of beautiful music around the world and around different styles by judging the worth of all music on how flamenco it is.. sometimes theres just beautifuly expresed music out there that dosent require a label or a genra to enjoy and feel inspired by it and find the beauty and art in it. even the most flamenco of flamenco guitarists have some of they favs and influences and artists or music that inspire them outside flamenco Vicente - Pat Metherny Gerardo - Rafael Rabello (I think someone mentioned it to me)...Ricardo would probably know Paco - Chick Corea Tomatito - George Benson Jeronimo - American music (he says, i am not sure what that means exactly) Farruquito - Michael Jackson Dont get me wrong. I am not the type of guy who is hearing flamenco 24 hours a day and who doesnt like or accept other genres. I like Jazz and some classical music as well as Rock and Pop and i even like house music when i am in a party or when i am jogging and i even like Elevator music when i am in an Elevator. But i dont want to hear Elevator music from Vicente Amigo, Paco de Lucia, or the other Maestros. When i buy an Album from these Artists, i am in the mood for flamenco and so i expect at least some Flamenco in it! Experimentation and influences from other Genres and other musicians is good. You can mix jazz elements, modern falsetas, other instruments, etc. in your production. But as a flamenco guitarist, completely leaving the flamenco genre in some pieces and expect that everyone has to see the beauty in it? No, there were and are some "experiments" that some people like me dont like. One has to accept that. I mean if Vicente wanted to reach a wider audience with Poeta, ok, maybe he did, and i am sure that some poeple that usually dont hear flamenco, did like this Album, but at the same time i am sure that he lost a small group of flamenco audience with this album, simply because this group wants to hear flamenco when buying an album from a flamenco musician.
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Date Dec. 1 2008 2:07:27
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paleto3
Posts: 148
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: San Diego, CA
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RE: Vicentes POETA (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
what is actually the urge to do a mix of flamenco guitar and orchestr I think that a guitarist like Vicente Amigo, Manolo Sanlucar, Paco de Lucía, Gerardo Núñez, Rafael Riqueni, Juan Carmona, J.M. Cañizares find that they have played in lots of musical formations, but by their nature are open minded people looking to learn and experience something new. Composing and performing with an orchestra probably has taught each of them many things and offered them some new ways to express themselves musically. I would say it's the novelty of the experience for them, new expressive opportunities, a learning experience, plus widening the audience by performing for not only classical enthusiasts but everyone else who finds themselves in the theater for the performances. This thread has benefited from some good responses, I want to say some of you got pretty thoughtful here, which was nice to see. I like the orchestral recordings, but don't listen all the time. They are but one mode of expression, and while many may not be as flamenco as some would like, they do have a value and should be appreciated for what they are, not just criticized for what they are not. I really like Vicente Amigo's playing under every circumstance I have heard him, so I suppose I have a bit of a bias towards the positive. In any case, thanks to all of you for your thoughts.
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Date Dec. 4 2008 9:25:50
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