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might be interesting. It's text from "Solo compas" and M.Cano's "La Gitarra". Plus historical mp3 recs of R. Montoya, M. Borrull accompanying Cojo de Malaga, Antonio Chacon, Juanito Mojama
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Hi Anders,
As you know, granaínas is just a fandango with its own distinct melody. In that sense, studying recordings of granaínas and accompanying them por arriba or por medio can show you exactly where the differences are. One difference that I can tell you off the top of my head is that the vocalization (ayeo, entrada, etc.) that you hear in the beginning goes straight to E minor.
It's just a question of remembering the melody in each sung line of verse (los tercios), so it's important to find a recording that sticks in your head. For some reason, I always remember Camarón's "Que he dejado de quererte."
I think that what happens to most guitarists is that we have a vague idea of the melody, and we spend years trying to catch the changes on the fly. Then, one day, you realize that you've got an example of verse+melody in your head, and everything becomes easier from that point onward. Most guitarists can remember the first or second sung line of a cante, but what about the fourth, or the fifth? That's why I think that the best thing any guitarist can do is to learn to sing.
And then post it in the forum so we can all hear you sing.
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to NormanKliman)
The chord progession goes like this.......
D9/A (thats D9 with A in the bass), Gmaj G7, C D9/A,Gmaj A7, D D7,Gmaj G7,C.........F#7(b5), B phrygian [Bsus4(b9)]
It is my understanding that Media Granaina is the same but the end goes from C up to D and then back to C before the final cadence. Also sometimes singers will lead you to an Eminor chord after that same C and then follow down to D7, C7 and then the final cadence. Sometimes the F#7(b5) is left out. You play it when you hear the singer go down to an A# before resolving to B. A# being the 3rd of the chord F#7(b5).
Here is a video of me accompaying Antonio Malena....
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RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
That's why I think that the best thing any guitarist can do is to learn to sing.
And then post it in the forum so we can all hear you sing.
My favorite cantes to sing are Granaina and Malagueña. But I only sing in the shower and I don't want to get my recording gear wet.
The F#7b5 I often simply use C7/Bb instead. C7#11 is pretty much the same chord, but I like that A# in the bass.
Anyway, often times singers mix Granaina and Malagueña in a single performance so the guitarist plays both "por Arriba" or in E phrygian. Here is an example with Camaron and Tomatito:
In that key you can see it is just like Fandangos (the first letra he sings) but the melody goes along very slooooooooooow and drawn out. Very ornate type of fandango.
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
E minor.......hmmm, I guess you are refering to the lamento in the beginning. I don't consider that a part of the letra. That's more of a warm up the voice kind of thing, but its always there so it should be included. E minor, C, C7/Bb or F#7(b5), B phrygian.......then all the stuff I said above.
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
Hey thanks Jason. Thats taken a lot of guess work out of the granaina. I am not sure about the media granaina though. Ive heard it done with several variations and I really wouldnt like to say what makes it specifically "media". You would assume it was shorter (which it isnt)
quote:
But I only sing in the shower and I don't want to get my recording gear wet.
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to Pimientito)
It would be cool if someone could definitvely tell us about the "Media" part. I would ask Felix, but he is away doing some shows and I won't see him until mid December. Perhaps someone there in Granada could give an authoritative answer. My answer is based on accompanying and asking "what was that?" and making some guesses about the differences. I would love to know a solid answer.
I do know that Media Granaina is looked at by most singers I have worked with to be more difficult to sing. I always thought it had something to do with range. Perhaps Media Granaina goes higher in pitch. Sort of like the difference between"por Arriba" and "por Medio" on the guitar. That is just another guess, but perhaps it will spark a discussion that can lead us to a clear answer.
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
Perhaps someone there in Granada could give an authoritative answer
Well I am in Granada...and I'm ashamed to admit I cant give you a definitive answer. Media Granaina does seem to require a lot more vocal control and ornamentation. The Granaina is exactly as you posted though. Its great that these questions pop up on the forum! I will ask around and see if I can get a clear distinction that isn't just a guess on my part.
To answer Anders original question the Granaina is structurally the same as the Fandango except in a different key. Actually the Granaina, Taranta, Minera, Malaguena and Fandango are essentially the same structure but in different keys. Of course each form has its variations and distinctive motifs on top, which is where all the study comes in. I started with learning fandango and then found that the other forms came more easily. It was easy from fandango to learn malagueña and from there Granaina and then Taranta (but thats just how I learned it)
Solea, tango, bulerias, seguirilla, farruca are all structurally very different though.
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Yes, its a really great thread. I hope Sean reads it, because he´s always grumbling about us not interested in Cante.
Pimiento, I know about the similarity between the different deviations of fandangos, but what I was looking for is exactly what I found here. A discussion about the chords and passing chordes.
I will follow Normans idea. Learn to thing. I found out I had "que he dejado de quererte" on a Camaron compilation I´ve downloaded the text, and I found this playing tutorial:
If I remember, I will ask the Cante teacher in the peña next friday about the media Granaina.
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Anders - That video is great!! If you learn that you can play 90 per cent of the Granaina out there. I see now what you mean by the Em minor ending...thats just a variation in the passing chords and its not always there.
Norman- the Granaina SOMETIMES starts with Em in the cante but thats a different verse. The first change is normally the D. The video and Jasons post are what I would consider the basic or straight Granaina. After that are variations.
I just listened to Estrella Morente media graniana and the first change is to C then D back to C then B. The Letra starts on D again and goes through the normal changes until the finale C to D, Em, C then B. I dont see why that makes it Media Granaina though. Its not played por media. I'm going to find out today and post tonight.
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
I had the morning off today so went on a mission in Granada to find the answer (start theme to mission imposssible dub....dub....dub,dub....dub...dub...dub,dub)
This is not an easy question to answer and it seems to be confusing even for the flamencos. I asked a few people and got a bewildering array of answers, some were clearly guesses, some were informed and some were just confused. I found 2 sources that I considered reliable The first is Francisco Manuel Diaz. Not only a great luthier but also a guitarist, a founder member of the Granada Peña flamenca, a flamencologist and Granaino. He kindly played me old scratchy recordings of Porrina de Badajoz, Valderrama etc. in his workshop for half an hour this morning to explain.
Firstly and importantly he explained that structurally there is no difference between the Granaina and Media Granaina.....that is to say that for us Guitarists you are playing the same chord structure (although the interpretation varies).
Although you can play fandango in E and A phrygian, the media granaina is not played "por media". It is always played in B phrygian. Granaina was also known as Fandango de Granada and this makes sense. Its essentially a fandango in B phrygian. The difference is in the cante. Media granaina is more difficult to sing and as I suspected there is a greater amount of ornamentation and vocal control required. It requires alot of skill on the part of the guitarist to accompany the tonal changes (which vary eg.as in jasons post) especially at the last line of each letra.
Now the other complication arises from the Cantaor Chacón who changed the nomenclature by singing his own interpretation. I asked another flamencologist about this and she corroborated Manuel Diazs story and sent me the following article
It seems Chacón sang his version of Granadina....which he called Media Granadina...which has since become known and accepted today as Granaina. Conversely the original Granadina( that Chacon based his cante on) is now called Media Granaina.....everyone with me so far???????
Lo que Chacón llamó "media granadina" hoy se conoce y nombra por "granaína" y, consecuentemente, su "granadina" se etiqueta como "media granaína".
This says " that which Chacón called "media granadina, we know today by the name of "granaina" and conversly his "granadina" is labelled "media Granaina"
Ok here is the rest of the article. I will leave it to some of you guys to translate the juicy bits
La granaína se encuadra entre los denominados cantes de levante y, según la mayor parte de los investigadores, nace como consecuencia del aflamencamiento de un estilo de fandango popular de la comarca. José Blas Vega nos dice que "la granaína o fandango de Granada ha tenido dos líneas artísticas distintas partiendo del mismo origen. En su versión más autóctona, y después de diversos cultivadores más o menos significativos, llegó a su cenit con la personalidad de Frasquito Yerbabuena. La otra línea fue cimentada, engrandecida y divulgada por obra exclusiva de don Antonio Chacón, respetando el material sencillo, popular y hermoso que tenia a mano, el de la vieja granadina".
Con relación a la media granaína, según Blas Vega, es una creación del propio Chacón: "La granaína era un cante que a Chacón le venia corto. Su temperamento inquieto y su condición musical le impulsaron a desarrollar la base de este cante, para crear otro estilo de más valor artístico al cual, como él decía: "...no le puedo poner granaínas y como algún nombre le tengo que poner, le llamo "media granaína", imponiendo este nombre en la nomenclatura".
A pesar del aval que para estos cantes supuso la figura de don Antonio Chacón, ya que les dio un gran impulso, costó su aceptación por los aficionados al cante jondo, e incluso no fue incluido como cante jondo en el Concurso celebrado en Granada en 1922, promovido por Falla, García Lorca y otros intelectuales. De todas formas, el sello de Chacón acompañó siempre a estos cantes, que fueron cultivados con gran éxito por figuras como Tomás Pavón, Juanito Mojama, Niña de los Peines, Pepe Marchena y Vallejo, entre otros.
Actualmente la granaína se sigue interpretando asiduamente por figuras del flamenco de la categoría de Morente, Menese o Mercé, que aportaron su sello personal al interpretar cada uno de ellos estos cantes.
Con la denominación de granaína y media granaína existe cierta confusión en cuanto a su distinción, ya que algunos autores denominan "granaína" al cante largo y adornado que Chacón impuso y "media granaína" a la versión corta, sencilla y más hermosa (en palabras de Molina y Mairena). Otros autores y expertos invierten la identificación. En conclusión, no hay acuerdo a la hora de distinguir la "granaína" y la "media granaína".
Se supone que Chacón habría escuchado a África Vázquez, que actuaba en el café de Silverio allá por el último cuarto del siglo XIX, cantar las granaínas que hicieron famosa a esta cantaora de Granada, la más célebre de las cuales decía:
Viva Graná que es mi tierra Viva el puente del Genil la Virgen de las Angustias la Alhambra y el Albaicín.
Aparte de esta copla, la citada cantaora hacía otras granaínas en el curso de sus actuaciones. Estas granaínas fueron las que oyó Chacón y con su genio musical elevó este cante a gran altura. Grabó varias de estas granaínas, entre ellas la que hemos recogido anteriormente.
En cuanto a la medio granaína de Chacón, ha sido ensalzada por todos los intérpretes y aficionados al flamenco, resaltando de ella su dulzura, delicadeza y musicalidad. Como ya hemos dicho, Chacón llamó a este cante "media granaína", ya que la granaína ya existía y lo que él creaba, aunque tenia matices de granaína, no era, evidentemente, una granaína. El cantaor jerezano realizó diversas grabaciones de la media granaína y de todas ellas tal vez la más conocida es la que dice así:
Engarzá en oro y marfil tú llevas una cruz al cuello engarzá en oro y marfil; déjame que muera en ella y crucificarme allí, una cruz llevas al cuello.
Es también muy conocida la siguiente:
Fue porque no me dio gana, rosa si no te cogí, fue porque no me dio gana, al pié de un rosal dormí y rosa tuve por cama y de cabecera un jazmín.
A la vista de estas letras y su identificación al asignarlas a uno y otro de los cantes que venimos comentando, cualquier aficionado puede apreciar lo que en su origen se llamó "granaína" y "media granaína". ¿Que ocurrió después para desembocar en la confusión llegado el momento de distinguir un cante del otro? José Luis Navarro García señala los motivos: "Chacón registró este cante en varias ocasiones. Le llamó "media granaína" porque, evidentemente, no era una "granaína", pero tenia muchas cosas de la "granaína", era casi una granaína, era "media" granaína. El hecho de adjetivarla como "media" no impidió jamás que fuese inferior, en ningún aspecto, de la "granadina"; era simplemente en parte parecida y en parte diferente. Después, por uno de esos inexplicables y extraños juegos de la fortuna se trastocaron las denominaciones de los cantes que Chacón dedicó a la provincia nazarí. Lo que Chacón llamó "media granadina" hoy se conoce y nombra por "granaína" y, consecuentemente, su "granadina" se etiqueta como "media granaína". Según Navarro García el cambio de denominación de estos cantes se había empezado a producir antes de la muerte del creador de la "media granaína" y el culpable de la alteración parece ser que fue Cepero, según atestigua Eduardo M. del Portillo en su obra "Cante Jondo". A partir de aquí la confusión ha persistido.
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RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Yeah Chacon made up the name and then the record company mislabled the album tracks, so now you have the version names in common use REVERSED. Same thing happened to "All Blues" and "Flamenco Sketches" on Kind of Blue.
Anyway, again with the mislabeling thing, you have the Malagueña and Granaina/media Granaina songs mixed up by aficionados for the same dumb reason...album track listings.
I heard the same letra sung by porrina and many others (busca la flor que amaba) labeled once Granaina, once media Granaina, once Malagueña. The problem is when singers mix a granaina with a true malagueña, sometimes the labels used on albums or TV will use ONE as a catch all. When criticized about calling that letra whatever, E. Morente started announcing it as "una malagueña en tonos de Granaina".
In the end the most important thing is that the singer sings with feeling the right notes, and the guitarist accompanies well. As an accompanist I found a couple little things to think about that relate the non fandango fanangos. For example:
Malaguena and Taranto/taranta/minera/fandango minero etc, have a thing where the singer resolves that first line to the 4 chord (F in key of E phrygian, G in Taranta), but the guitar can opt to SKIP playing that tone, and ANSWER the voice back to relative major (C in Ephrygian or D in Taranta).
Another interesting similarity, is that the ending of media Granaina OFTEN goes to the major 7th (A# in key of B phrygian) likewise Taranto often does the same (E#), but not always. The other kind of granaina does not do that and nor does the other levante cantes (like Taranta, minera cartajenera).
A good singer will do whatever he wants of course and the guitarists job is not to second guess, but to follow. But it is good to have a few blue prints to work from do make some "educated" gueses.
RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to Ricardo)
I think the confusion that Ricardo refers to in the end of his post is what keeps accompanists "on their toes" so that we are ready to follow the whimsy of the singers. Its great to know what the expectations are, but they can never be taken for granted.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Malaguena and Taranto/taranta/minera/fandango minero etc, have a thing where the singer resolves that first line to the 4 chord (F in key of E phrygian, G in Taranta), but the guitar can opt to SKIP playing that tone, and ANSWER the voice back to relative major (C in Ephrygian or D in Taranta).
It is my experience that the guitar MUST skip the 4 chord in these palos. Its never seemed like an option to me. The first time I played Malagueña for a singer was with Enrique "El Extremeño" of all people. I didn't know much, but I could hear tones. I played the 4 chord because it sounded right. I got a really serious lecture about listening to recordings and not letting just my knowledge of harmony dictate what I do.
A singer needs to hear the 5 chord there because that is what they EXPECT and NEED to hear. As an accompanist you are providing a chord for the NEXT thing the singer will do, not a response to the what he did before the chord. It still sounds "wrong" to me to this day because its a bit backwards of what seems right. Enrique is a big and intimidating guy and the experience left a lasting impression on me. Everytime I hear a singer resolve to that place in a Malaguena,Taranto,Minera etc.... I think of him.
Thanks Anders for getting us talking about this stuff.
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RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire
It is my experience that the guitar MUST skip the 4 chord in these palos. Its never seemed like an option to me. The first time I played Malagueña for a singer was with Enrique "El Extremeño" of all people. I didn't know much, but I could hear tones. I played the 4 chord because it sounded right. I got a really serious lecture about listening to recordings and not letting just my knowledge of harmony dictate what I do.
A singer needs to hear the 5 chord there because that is what they EXPECT and NEED to hear. As an accompanist you are providing a chord for the NEXT thing the singer will do, not a response to the what he did before the chord. It still sounds "wrong" to me to this day because its a bit backwards of what seems right. Enrique is a big and intimidating guy and the experience left a lasting impression on me. Everytime I hear a singer resolve to that place in a Malaguena,Taranto,Minera etc.... I think of him.
Thanks Anders for getting us talking about this stuff.
Yeah, I have heard some guys actually play the 4 chord (more often in Taranto/a than Malagueña), but like real soft under the singer there, or even just hold the shape of the chord, but as soon as he/she (singer) lets go of that note the guitar is BAM V-I. Very different than the normal "following the tonos" that you do with the other fandangos. But still, hearing those guys at least "touch" the IV chord makes me feel better about the whole thing. Probably the singers reemed those guys too after the show/recording session.
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RE: Chords for Granaina y media Granaina (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Malaguena and Taranto/taranta/minera/fandango minero etc, have a thing where the singer resolves that first line to the 4 chord (F in key of E phrygian, G in Taranta), but the guitar can opt to SKIP playing that tone, and ANSWER the voice back to relative major (C in Ephrygian or D in Taranta).
Sorry, I’m new to this discussion (it started before I’d joined the foro), so please bear with me:
I’m confused by the reference to F as the 4 chord in the key of E Phrygian: I would have expected 2. Is it because the melody has temporarily modulated to C?