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michall

 

Posts: 77
Joined: Aug. 3 2007
From: Prague

Fauchers Transcriptions 

Hi there - just study El Cobre from Fauchers transcription and need help - what means this symbol in uploaded image?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2008 11:33:58
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

half beat rest - don't play anything there!

if it was classical music then technically a rest means you would be supposed to damp the string there, until the next note is played, but as it's flamenco you would either be playing staccato and damp that way, or let the previous note ring - you need to listen to the recording to decide.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2008 14:48:24
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

Is that what people are paying craploads of money for? With no proper notation included?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2008 12:40:24
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

LOL @ exitao

ok now i have looked at the picture. acctually it IS good notation. there are eights. and on one eight there iis no note (no number). so it is pretty logic to me that he meant a pause.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2008 12:52:39
 
michall

 

Posts: 77
Joined: Aug. 3 2007
From: Prague

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

Thanx Mark
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2008 13:23:48
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
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RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Exitao

quote:

Is that what people are paying craploads of money for? With no proper notation included?


you mean those little black dot things? who needs 'em?!

these are good transcriptions, and yeah, they are in tab only, but with time values on the tab, which is usually the criticism dot readers make of tab.

Having compared the "official" Paco transcriptions (by Jorge Berges) of Barrio La Viña and De Madrugada with the Faucher tabs, studied the recordings closely and learnt both pieces, IMO the Faucher tabs are way way better, the "official" ones are sometimes plain wrong in pitch and often dead wrong in time values, and the Faucher tabs are much much closer. Paco should of had Faucher do his transcriptions. (The Fuente Y Caudal book transcribed by Cañizares is spot on though)

Deniz is right,
quote:

it IS good notation
If you read ok it's obvious what that rest meant in the sample of El Cobre.

Here's an odd thing though, Faucher no longer advertises PDL tabs on his website, anyone know why not? He still sells them "under the counter" if you ask for them. And whats with the "not for sale only free if you buy 3 others"? Is that purely to get us to buy more tabs and save his ass from bankruptcy, or is it legal pressure or something?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2008 13:34:14
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

If you read ok it's obvious what that rest meant in the sample of El Cobre.

Here's an odd thing though, Faucher no longer advertises PDL tabs on his website, anyone know why not? He still sells them "under the counter" if you ask for them. And whats with the "not for sale only free if you buy 3 others"? Is that purely to get us to buy more tabs and save his ass from bankruptcy, or is it legal pressure or something?


AFAIK, paco complained about royalties for the transcriptions and about the accuracy, gestion de lucia now approves the "official" copies. as well as other artists.

i bought three books from faucher (solea por bul anthology, tomatito, and moraito) as you get more bang ie 6 to 7 pieces for the a smaller price to the tabs, that being said his website has the most extensive selection of flamenco material for guitarists on the web, and im looking forward to his next book by rafael riqueni. you can pretty much get whatever you want on the site, unless its really obscure, the only thing i dont like is that i would prefer the he provided cds instead of cassettes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2008 13:57:36
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

Frankly, I can't read sheet very well. Definitely can't make those "dots" line up with anything on my fretboard. However, for certain instructions, particularly tempo, I do like seeing those dots.

Maybe I'm spoiled with guitar pro and other apps displaying both notation and tabs. My teacher (an actual music teacher qualified and graded by a conservatory, blah blah blah), actually uses Sibelius to prepare his lessons and the notation and tab is great (I think he does it to get the new student hooked by making him/her feel as musical as possible as quickly as possible before loading on the migraine material).

But for the price, I expect "professional transcripts" to have both. My reading skills aren't good enough to read those hen scratchings of Faucher's. The fact that his scratchings are a hybrid of tab and notation make things worse for me. I'm also fairly sure that if it had been written with a transcription app that displayed tab and notation, the question that inspired this thread would not have needed asking. Because it wouldn't have been so idiosyncratic, and it would have been easier to look up the pure notation, or the modern tab would have expressed it, or comparing the pure notation to the tab would have allowed the reader/original poster, to figure it out.

Just my ever-so-humble opinion. I've DL'ed a fair bit of Faucher, but it's sitting somewhere waiting for the day when I understand enough general music/flamenco to revisit it, and then enter it into an app like GP, Sib or Finale. And then post it everywhere on the net available for any pirate musical enough to whistle yo ho ho and a bottle of rum. Partly for the points Henry makes above, partly out of revenge for being so illegible and partly because I like information anarchy. But mainly for revenge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2008 14:34:20
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Exitao

quote:

My reading skills aren't good enough to read those hen scratchings of Faucher's. The fact that his scratchings are a hybrid of tab and notation make things worse for me.


He's not the only one to mix tab with standard notation time values. I first came across writing like this in a guitar mag - transcriptions of Paco Serrano by Paul Magnussen I think - and found it a perfect best of both worlds solution. If I write tab myself I do it that way. It means you get more music on the page, as you don't have to have 2 lines of music for each line of music. It saves a hell of a lot of time not having to write dots as well. And above all, you don't have to look between 2 lines of notation to put the time values from the dots above with the tab below! Works for me anyway. I wish more people would do it that way. And by the way, in case you didn't know, Faucher's books all have the double dot/tab system, and I wish they didn't!

quote:

I've DL'ed a fair bit of Faucher, but it's sitting somewhere waiting for the day when I understand enough general music/flamenco to revisit it, and then enter it into an app like GP, Sib or Finale. And then post it everywhere on the net available for any pirate musical enough to whistle yo ho ho and a bottle of rum. Partly for the points Henry makes above, partly out of revenge for being so illegible and partly because I like information anarchy. But mainly for revenge.


If you download Faucher tabs off the net they are scanned by someone first, usually after they have dog-eared it to hell learning the piece from it, and usually after they photocopied it from a friend in the first place, who had dog-eared to hell their original copy learning the piece from it... all of which tends to make the stuff you download illegible. ALL the tabs (and I mean ALL of them) I have bought direct from Faucher have been absolutely totally legible and easy to read and understand.

IMO Fauchertabs are the best flamenco transcriptions available, and I'm all for freedom of information, but not if it puts the guy out of business and he stops doing new tabs and offering them for sale - that would be like killing the goose that laid golden eggs....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2008 6:54:19
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Exitao

Just an observation but for me it always made more sense to have guitar music written in tab than in score.

Medieval Lute music was always written in tab so that you knew where to put your hands, especially on instrument with up to 13 courses of strings....and surely thats the most important thing about flamenco guitar as well. To my mind, stringed instruments suit tab as opposed to wind or keyboard instruments where there is only 1 way to obtain each note. Fauchers tab is handwritten but I agree with Henry, it is pretty acurate and its better to know the hand positions than to have the black dots exactly right.

This always annoyed me with Japanese transcriptions where the melody was flawlessy transcribed, yet the fingering was impossible and certainly not what the guitarist was doing.

Exitao- I see your sentiment (even though tongue in cheek)but as a tabber myself, I dont think you have any idea of the time and work involved in producing an accurate transcription.
Secondly, its only very recently that all this stuff became so easily available and downloadable. Before internet we had to order and buy individual tabs and Faucher was the only reliable source. I believe Fauchers contribution to flamenco guitar outside of spain has an immeasurable value and its a shame that the internet has turned it into an almost disposable resource.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2008 7:04:11
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

Maybe you guys are right. All I know is that there's stuff I can't read and when I can compare the tab to the notation, it just makes it easier to figure out.

I was just venting about the free-ing of the tabs. I'd guard them jealously and maybe only share them with people who had stuff to trade or shared their rapidshare login with me.

Yes, tab is very useful for fingering and &c. There were even classical composers who did as much for certain instruments.


And while you guys say that you might tab the same way, that's a matter of personal preference and I just expect proper notation and tab with a commercial product ($30 for a transcription?). After all, there are Guitar Pr, Powertab and Tef sites out there which offer both, for free, and also from some decent tabbers.

Pimientito, you're more than just a tabber. I can use a tabbing app to transfer notation to tab. You're listening and transcribing... but to tab. But really, how long would it take you to take one of Faucher's transcriptions and plug it into Sibelius or just Guitar Pro? So why couldn't he?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2008 12:16:32
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Exitao

quote:

I just expect proper notation and tab with a commercial product ($30 for a transcription?). After all, there are Guitar Pr, Powertab and Tef sites out there which offer both, for free, and also from some decent tabbers.


I take your point about why doesn't he use a decent programme to produce his tabs (and like I said, his books have both and properly printed etc.). I guess he started doing this back in the seventies or eighties and hasn't upgraded yet... Handwritten is ok though, as long as it's neat, which his is, in my experience.

And as for the price, it used to be about 10 Francs/Euros per tab and what he's done is put the price for a single tab up to 20 Euros, but if you buy 2 tabs it's 17 Euros each, and if you buy 3 tabs it's 13 Euros each, which is only a price rise of 3 Euros, AND if you buy 3 you get to choose one of his freebie list, so you get 4 tabs for 39 Euros, which actually works out very slightly cheaper than it used to be. His books are better value, 'cos you get 6 tabs for 33/35 Euros.

I guess a while back he was the only guy doing this and it seemed reasonably priced, and now there are a whole lot more people producing books, and they work out cheaper, but the books of Tomatito's Paseo De Castaños, Pepe Habichuela's Yerbaguena, El Viejín's Algo Que Decir, and Rafael Riqueni's Alcazar De Cristal are nearly 40 Euro's, and some only have 3 pieces in, so that's no more expensive than Faucher's buy 3 tabs get one free deal.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2008 13:33:11
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to mark indigo

Hmmmph. Well I guess that's all right then.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2008 13:48:43
 
Estevan

Posts: 1942
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Exitao

quote:

But really, how long would it take you to take one of Faucher's transcriptions and plug it into Sibelius or just Guitar Pro? So why couldn't he?

It's a curious thing I've noticed that in published transcriptions using both tab and notation (where I prefer to read the notation) it's the notation that has the misprints. Which means that the notation was a second transcription, from the tab, and not done automatically by the notation program. I guess that problem won't happen any more if they use e.g. Sibelius.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2008 14:59:47
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

quote:

But really, how long would it take you to take one of Faucher's transcriptions and plug it into Sibelius or just Guitar Pro? So why couldn't he?


It takes a long time. His transcriptions, especially the newer ones, are usually accurate.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2008 15:33:22
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Exitao

quote:

Hmmmph. Well I guess that's all right then.


hey exitao, i just checked the list of buy 3 get one free freebie's on faucher's website, and it's a small list, and i don't actually want many of them, which means the buy 3 get one free deal is not actually worth that much, so i changed my mind, i agree with you, the tabs are too expensive, maybe we could start a petition and get him to do buy 3 get one free chosen from the whole catalogue.

i often wonder too how he chooses which pieces to transcribe, there's often only a few pieces from any one album. and i guess the reason there are so many tabs from deleted lp's is 'cos he made them before cd's were around... it's weird, there are tabs from manolo sanlucar albums that don't seem to actually exist....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2008 7:13:22
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

there are tabs from manolo sanlucar albums that don't seem to actually exist....


I will agree that is annoying....especially when he has transcribed some obscure recording from a festival flamenco that has been deleted years ago. My collection is pretty extensive and he has transcribed stuff I've never heard of!

quote:

the tabs are too expensive, maybe we could start a petition and get him to do buy 3 get one free chosen from the whole catalogue.


Mark - Thats a great idea. I would buy more tab if it were cheaper. Its the same with CDs. I dont mind paying 10/12 euros but 18/20 is too much. If he lowered the individual price or did 4 for the price of 3 that would be much better! He should also be amenable to dropping the price on entire albums - For example some of the Sabicas albums with 8 tabs should be no more than say 70 euros. It would cost over 1600 euros for the Sabicas collection at his prices.

Saying all that I fully agree with someones comment that Fauchers work is generally the most accurate (noone is 100% all the time) and that he should be supported. Its a long, tedious task, many hours of labour and why shouldnt he get paid for it...it is his job after all! Posting his tabs on the net really is taking his livelihood away.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2008 8:55:19
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Pimientito

does anyone know him?

does he read this?

should we send him a link to this thread?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2008 15:12:04
 
peghead48

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Oct. 16 2008
From: Cheltenham

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

Is that website still around with PDL transcripts for free, I lost the link when the hard disc went a while ago.

Only discovered foro was back last week!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 9:48:39
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to peghead48

I guess its a litlle bit of a loyalty and respect thing also with Faucher..i mean he was the first one doing it and making it available when noone else would..

hes supplied the whole world with good flamenco even if it wasent always spot on he gave most of us an oportunity to play stuff we couldnt have or taken forever to transcribe ..speaking for myself..i hate transcribing..i only do it out of necesity lol (you will find his tab in any country that has flamenco)

from what i understand his methods are quite modest.. no special equipment...writtes it down by hand...and probably makes just enough to get by and even less now with 100 other books and tabs sites and scanners..etc..

whenever i think flamenco transcriptions his handwriting is the first thing that jumps into my head, also i kind of love the handwritting, i find it eazyer to read then the printed flamenco books for some reason lol...good on him, he deserves whatever he can get and the loyalty and respect of those that benefited from his transcriptions.

I also admire his determination...goes to show that when u wanna do something and feel passionate about something anything less is just an excuse, he did it with a pen and paper..if he dedicated the same amount of time and effort in any other field he would be a doctor in it by now and probably earn more so i pressume it must be love and passion too..


he really is one of the unsung heros of flamenco...expecially to guitarrists outside spain...but everyone even dancers and singers benefited as a result of his efforts


he is a legend in flamenco...hes contribuited so so much to it but making it possible for others ..if there was a flamenco museum he deserves a statue in it...hes done a lifetime of transcribing..that in itself is such an achivement (anyone got any idea how many transcriptions hes done in total btw ? )



Ok i just saw that Pimientito mirroed my sentiments exactly above..and Exitao i am not saying it to tell you off, u are entitled to say whatever u like .. am just saying it to give you my prespective ..i wanna read myself saying it in writting cause i feel alot of respect and apreciation for him.

quote:

(The Fuente Y Caudal book transcribed by Cañizares is spot on though)


ofcourse he toured with him and acompanied him on all those numbers at one time or another..had a view like no other its almost unfair competition thats not transcribing thats just writing down what you allready know and have witnessed for hours and hours in the flesh
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 11:54:19
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Florian

ive spoken with alain before he's a very nice and down to earth guy, and his service is great got the book 3 days after ordering via his website.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 12:04:20
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Florian

so what does anyone think of that sonofman guy posting a whole bunch of pacotabs on the net? on the one hand it's bad for faucher, 'cos his work is up there for free, but on the other hand, he's been prevented from advertising pacotabs for sale, and that site was "dedicated to the work of alain faucher'" or something...

it's a real shame that paco made him stop advertising pacotabs, 'cos he had transcribed nearly everything up to and including siroco, i saw his catalogue before he had to take it all down, this huge list of them, must have been half his catalogue, and if the problem was accuracy, the fauchertabs are better than any in the fabulosa guitarra book.... they should have come to some deal and faucher should have been the official paco tabber. mind you, the canizares ones are good, i haven't seen the almoraima book, anyone?

i checked the archives here and there was an interesting discussion a while ago about faucher basically ripping off the artists by infringing copyright, selling tabs of their work without giving them royalties etc. vs posting fauchertabs on the net and putting the guy out of business etc.

anyway, whatever the moral maze of copyright, tabbing, sharing, etc. i agree with flo, the guy is a virtuoso transcriber, the maestro of tab (el monstruo de cifra?) a total hero!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 13:14:02
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

i checked the archives here and there was an interesting discussion a while ago about faucher basically ripping off the artists by infringing copyright, selling tabs of their work without giving them royalties etc.


lol..that was years ago...i remember i think i was on the other side of the argument but i guess my views have changed..its not fair for me to just shoot my mouth like that against the reputation of guy who has had such an impact in flamenco and has given and been around for so long..

sometimes i say silly things in a hurry just like any other human been without procesing it... but once i have time to think about it ...eventualy i come around and try to do or say something that agreees with my concience

i kind of grew up on this forum lol my views have changed so many times (reading my posts from years ago is like the equivalent of seeing photos of myself when i was 15 - 16 and my clothes and haircuts) if i trace me rebelious stages back i think i find myself disagreeing with myself so many times lol flamenco really has made a hypocrit of me i wish i had it in my personality back then to be more in the midlle lol...or atlist be quiet about the things i didnt always agree with..

one day i am blasting JM like hes evil the next i am defending him...and then it repeats lol

one day i rebel against everything that is traditional the next i defend it.. its really geting hard just to remember where i stand on things anymore hehe whos got the energy to have a point of view anymore ...this days i just agree with anything that dosent get me into an argument.....well..sometimes noone changes overnight
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 13:21:48
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

Also... in the past some people have acused me of always having to have the last word on every thread but thats bull*hit its just coincidence
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 13:43:07
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Florian

so.... shall i post that website address or not?

they aren't all fauchertabs, but hey, if you can't read some of his tabs on there, you could buy a nice new clean copy from alain, so it's not bad for him, it's good for him, it's like a taster, a teaser, an advert.

go to the tabs forum and scroll down for "pdl tabs" it's in there

or try the thread "Anyone interested in Paco's scores pdf?"

btw i never did get a la perla de cadiz... maybe i'll post some of my bad transcription up and ask for corrections (i bought aires choqueros from faucher though)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 13:50:21
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

btw i never did get a la perla de cadiz


thats a cantinas isnt it ? i need one


quote:

so.... shall i post that website address or not?


yeah scr*w him, hes never given me anything for free and he probably is ripping off artists from theyr copyrights
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 13:54:57
 
peghead48

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Oct. 16 2008
From: Cheltenham

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

Thanks Mark

My 10 pages of Punta Del Faro have become rather worn after persistant use the last few months.


Bit off topic ,I know and it sounds weird but ain't , Are others here hooked on the spruce/ cypress smell eminating from the soundhole on their guitars? .

Thanks
Simon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 14:12:21
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to peghead48

quote:

Are others here hooked on the spruce/ cypress smell eminating from the soundhole on their guitars?


I am i wish you could buy that stuff at the market and serve it at parties..is it the wood that smells or some kind of glue ?

there's 3 smells out there for some reason i cant walk away from and i have no idea why. because most people wouldnt exactly view it as pleasant smells..petrol, shoe cream and that stuff ...

but thats another topic
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2008 14:16:21
 
Bogdan1980

 

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to michall

Ok, well where do people get the Faucher's transcriptions of Paco? I mean I know some were going around here, but like El Cobre or some others are not available. Plus it doesn't look like you can buy them on Faucher's site.

Does anyone know how to buy those?

Bogdan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2008 6:48:42
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Fauchers Transcriptions (in reply to Bogdan1980

quote:

Ok, well where do people get the Faucher's transcriptions of Paco? I mean I know some were going around here, but like El Cobre or some others are not available. Plus it doesn't look like you can buy them on Faucher's site.

Does anyone know how to buy those?


mail him, contact address on website

(you actually just order them on the online order form, but check first with him the piece you want maybe in case it's one of the few he didn't tab)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2008 9:40:14
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