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Devon8822

 

Posts: 2
Joined: Sep. 26 2008
 

Rasguaedo continuous 

Can someone help me with this technique? using all the fingers to do a continuous strumming sound very fast. I have practiced and i can go Pinky, a, m, i... fast, but i cannot seem to loop it successfully to go again and again. How is this done? Is there a common/standard flamenco book that seems to be a classic out there that I should pickup for starting to learn this style?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2008 14:06:52
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to Devon8822

hi heres some things we talked about 2 weeks ago...i am sure you might find some answers


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=91529&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

also for demonstrations use youtube..type in Jason Maguire, Francisco Antonio, or Monte Del Adam ...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2008 15:27:31
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3295
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to Devon8822

quote:

Pinky, a, m, i... fast


have read thru Flo's link to the other thread (which i missed out on by being down with a virus), loads of good advice there.

i would ask why you want to do eami in a continuous loop? which of the players you idolise and listen to fervently use it that you want to emulate?

it's a bit of a cheeky question

'cos anyone who is driving themselves nuts trying to master this peculiar variation on the rajeo theme has a copy of johnny martin lurking at home somewhere..!

I'll 'fess up right away, i started out with the john martin book, and i could never get that eami continuous thing, and felt like a total no hoper....

....until i started watching lots more vids of other players, and studying other methods and tabs of top players etc., and realised that NOONE uses this technique! so i didn't need to top myself for being a total loser after all!

it was a little while after this that i was watching a vid of Sabicas (i think it was the rito y geografia del toque) and lo and behold there was that weird one off jm technique right before my eyes.

So my personal theory is that it was an idiosyncrasy of sabicas' technique that noone else picked up on, except our very own jm....

i think if you have eamii, amii, and abanico pai then you have the basics.

That thing about stressing different fingers that Ron posted on the other thread, the way i worked on this was as follows:

To practise eamii, use it to play a 6 stroke rajeo (all down strokes except for 2nd i upstroke - 5th group ends down, and 6th starts up);

1 2 3 4 5 6 2 2 3 4 5 6 3 2 3 4 5 6 4 2 3 4 5 6 5 2 3 4 5 6
e a m i i e , a m i i e a , m i i e a m , i i e a m i , i e a m i i ,

Each group begins with, and therefore is easy to stress, a different finger.
Another way of doing it is to do 4 strokes with eamii;

1 2 3 4 2 2 3 4 3 2 3 4 4 2 3 4 5 2 3 4
e a m i , i e a m , i i e a , m i i e , a m i i ,

You can do the same thing with amii, play a 5 stroke with it;

1 2 3 4 5 2 2 3 4 5 3 2 3 4 5 4 2 3 4 5
a m i i a , m i i a m , i i a m i , i a m i i ,

and/or a 3 stroke;

1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 3
a m i , i a m , i i a , m i i ,

Now if, like everyone has been saying (and they're darn right!), you gonna have to practise this for like years at a time, you better try and make this a bit more interesting, and as the goal is to play music, try to put it into compas.

Solea, tweaked a bit, 3 beats on each chord, F (maj7), C, F (maj7), E ; and/or try A-, G, F, E

1 e + a , 2 e + a , 3 and, 4 e + a , 5 e + a , 6 and,
e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i

7 e + a , 8 e + a , 9 and, 10 e + a , 11 e + a , 12 and,
e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i

(Beats 3, 6, 9, and 12 are just down up on and off the beat)

You can do the same thing with amii, but you can do 5 strokes per beat and/or 6 strokes per beat. 5's;

1 2 3 & 4 5 6 & 7 8 9 & 10 11 12 &
amiia, miiam, i i, amiia, miiam, i i, amiia, miiam, i i, amiia, miiam, i i

And 6's - something like this is used by Manolo Sanlucar and Vicente Amigo etc. (for the first 6 beats anyway - it's an exercise, so don't worry about it! );

1 2 3& 4 5 6& 7 8 9& 10 11 12&
amiiam, iiamii i i, amiiam, iiamii i i, amiiam, iiamii i i, amiiam, iiamii, i i

hope all that makes sense and is useful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2008 3:19:37
 
Stu

Posts: 1841
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

i think if you have eamii, amii, and abanico pai then you have the basics.


abanico pai??? whats that?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2008 7:35:53
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3295
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to Stu

quote:

quote:

i think if you have eamii, amii, and abanico pai then you have the basics.

abanico pai??? whats that?


abanico means "fan", and describes the rotary motion of the wrist, as when using a fan (i guess...)

pai is pulgar up, anular down, indice down

it's typically used to play triplets

i bothered to call it "abanico pai" to distinguish it from the Juan Maya Marote abanico p(up) ma(down) p(down)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2008 9:02:41
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1343
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to Florian

quote:

also for demonstrations use youtube..type in Jason Maguire, Francisco Antonio, or Monte Del Adam


Edit: It's Adam Del Monte. A YouTube search will link to 10 video lessons he has posted as advertising for his didactic website.

You could try Sal's Flamenco Soapbox for short videos on Flamenco technique.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2008 10:44:47
 
Wannabee

 

Posts: 131
Joined: Jan. 13 2007
 

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to Devon8822

Here's Sal's video lesson:

4 stroke eami



5 stroke eamii



Triplet rasgueado mii


4 stroke amii


3 stroke pai


3 stroke pap


By the way, Juan Serrano uses eami a lot:



As does Paco Pena



Anyway, hope this helps
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2008 18:07:18
 
edguerin

Posts: 1541
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to Devon8822

quote:

abanico means "fan", and describes the rotary motion of the wrist, as when using a fan (i guess...)

pai is pulgar up, anular down, indice down



To my knowledge "abanico" applies only when it's pulgar down as in eamip
(cf. Oscar Herrero )

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2008 22:39:38
 
Devon8822

 

Posts: 2
Joined: Sep. 26 2008
 

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to Devon8822

Now, Which is the easiest continuous rasguado to learn first?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2008 13:37:17
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to Devon8822

You can get amii to a continuous loop pretty quickly (speed depends of course). Doing it with a triplet feeling helps to get it even and close the gap.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2008 13:44:39
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3295
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to edguerin

quote:



abanico pai??? whats that?

quote:

abanico means "fan", and describes the rotary motion of the wrist, as when using a fan (i guess...)

pai is pulgar up, anular down, indice down



To my knowledge "abanico" applies only when it's pulgar down as in eamip
(cf. Oscar Herrero )


In the books accompanying the Encuentro DVD's they use A for "abanico PAI" and A2 for "abanico PMP" There is no mention of emaip ('cos i don't think anyone in these vids uses it... though if anyone does it might be merengue de cordoba).

If you've ever used a fan to, well, fan yourself, then you can easily see why this term is used for the guitar technique, 'cos essentially the wrist and forearm do the same thing, albeit with some variations on the thumb/finger movements. I think any/all rasgeos with that movement are abanicos. It doesn't matter if the thumb only plays the strings on the down stroke, to do eamip you would then have to move the thumb up to get it back into the start place again, so it would look like a fan, sure, but so does pai (upstroke only), and pmp (up and down strokes). IMO they are all abanicos.

You can also do emaipp, where the second p stroke is an upstroke, which is where the pmp thing came from, 'cos juan maya marote had some problem with his fingers and couldn't do all of emaipp, but he found the pmp was in a way just as good, if not better, as it gave a clear and powerful triplet, and time and the emulation of countless guitarists has backed him up on that!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2008 13:26:20
 
a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: Rasguaedo continuous (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

I'll 'fess up right away, i started out with the john martin book, and i could never get that eami continuous thing, and felt like a total no hoper....

....until i started watching lots more vids of other players, and studying other methods and tabs of top players etc., and realised that NOONE uses this technique! so i didn't need to top myself for being a total loser after all!

it was a little while after this that i was watching a vid of Sabicas (i think it was the rito y geografia del toque) and lo and behold there was that weird one off jm technique right before my eyes.

So my personal theory is that it was an idiosyncrasy of sabicas' technique that noone else picked up on, except our very own jm....


My teacher was Carlos Ramos -- a student (like Sabicas) of Ramon Montoya. Carlos taught me the continuous eami technique. At the time, I thought that was the ONLY proper way to do a continuous rasgueado, so I stuck with it and mastered it. So it isn't a weird one-off idiosyncrasy of Sabicas' (at that time, the other continuous rasgueado techniques were seen as a lazy substitute for the "real thing"), but today it IS seen as old fashioned. I still find it easier to produce a truly even continuous rasgueado that way than any other, but doing a lot of it is very tiring, like when playing loud and long for dancers.

There is a trick to continuous eami. You can't think of it as an eami and then race to get your e finger back to do it again. Instead:

The trick is to develop the ability to curl your "e" back toward your palm at the same time your "i" is extending in its downstroke -- much the same way you might do a golpe with the "a" finger simultaneous with an "i" downstroke. These 2 motions have to be simultaneous if you want your e finger to be in position to follow immediately after the i without any pause.

And yes, at first it feels very unnatural, but it really helps develop strength in the e finger -- something you have to do if ANY rasgueado involving the e is ever going to sound crisp.

Carlos also taught me the eamii, the apapapap, the ppappappappa (=abanico with p down and up) the paipaipai, the pamipami and a really obtuse one: ppeamippeami where the pp is a down and up with the edge of the thumbnail and the hand held in a stiff claw-like position. That last one I never really got the hang of, but I know it can be done well bcz I've seen it. And I picked up a bunch of others along the way -- including the weird ability to play a melody in compas with the thumb while doing a continuous iiiii up-down -- something PDL does frequently. I think we can make ourselves do a surprising array of weird things with our hands if we work at it.

A bonus: I found that my fast picado came along quickly when I started doing a lot of eamieami.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2008 18:56:30
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