Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Well, some of it seemed easy (so I thought, as I sat there thrashing through a few rhythmic compases of soleares) and some of it was tricky, but I feel I managed well. She is an experienced dancer, and I am a novice flamenco player. What was difficult was the verbal communication between us.
She would say 'do the da da da bit' and I would do the 'daga daga bit'.
I would start on 1 and she would start on 12.
I got the impression that she has either worked with experienced guitarists who just know what she is going to do, or she has mainly danced along to recordings and expected me to do what was on the disc. She even played me the CD she uses with her dance students, but it was more complicated than I could absorb at one hearing. I'm willing to accept that I got it wrong when it went wrong, but despite being a novice flamenco player, I have been a professional musician for many years. I can certainly count to twelve, and, between ourselves, felt that she was getting it wrong on occasion.
How do you guys work it out with your dancers? What language (I don't mean Spanish or English!) do you use to communicate?
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Rob)
I am not an experienced accompaniast, but I think most dancers are in the da-da-da zone, although some of them could tell you what beat of the compas the changes are, or what kind of falseta would go over what kind of movement.
Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Rob)
Rob,
Learning to accompany dance is an experience to say the least . I can certainly sympathize with you. Here is a link to the Miguelito's DC Flamenco website. There's a nice article he wrote there regarding dance class acompaniment.
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Guest)
Thanks for the replies.
I have a notion of what the terms 'escobilla' and 'letras' mean, but 'desplente' and 'tacaneo' are new to me. Can we have a FAQ definition of flamenco terms?
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Guest)
Andy thanks for posting that code, I think I'm going to start using that . One thing, though, your rap didnt seem to match up. The desplante was a bit unclear at the beginning. what is y ka?
Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
ORIGINAL: AndyB
quote:
she would start on 12.
I could help you more if I heard the recording. But I think the main places where the accentuation could shift from 1 to 12 would be in the tacaneo between letras or after a desplente in the escobilla.
Eddie? Does this agree with your experience?
The escobilla starts on 1, but a desplente could end that section on 10 and a new rhythm start on 12. That's what desplentes are for, technically. But today dancers come up with these almost random splicings of different choreographies so the rules don't always apply any more.
Sometimes the dancer will jump right into footwork on 12 after a letra, in which case you have to imagine the last line of the letras chords ending on 10 and the new rhythm starting on 12 of the same compas. Or at least that helps me.
I got the biggest kick when Vicky's mom told me that back in the golden days ALL desplentes started on 12 and ALL llamada on 1. She said that was just common courtesy, so that the guitarist doesn't have to guess what the dancer intended to do. Those were the good ole days for accompaniests. Today they expect you to memorize their choreographies.
-andy
Andy, Without actually seeing and hearing what is going on, it's hard to make a suggestion. But here's the important thing. Whether the dancer starts on 12 and the guitarist starts on 1, you all must be together on beats 3 and 10, very important landmarks in the compas. If it's Solea or Alegrias, I'll hold strong to starting on 1, closing on 10, except for the sections where tempo picks up in the escobilla sections. A shift to 12 usually happens here as you mentioned. This is where things can get muddy because a desplante and llamada can be hard to detect, especially as the tempo increases . These parts are usually worked out in advance. I've learned to read the body language to help determine which is which. On desplantes the body position and momentum signals they are going to continue dancing for another round of compases. On the llamada, the body language is usually very distinct in saying 'Okay I'm done dancing, here is my mark, let's end on 10'. Of course this depends on the dancer's skill and style. With some there is no visible distinction, so you kind of have to wing it. A lot of what's done these days is a cut and paste of different steps from different choreographies, because everyone is learning different steps from different teachers and styles. For the guitarist this can be frustrating because while the pieced together sections might make sense to the dancer, it may or may not make rhythmic sense to the guitarist. The difficulty for Rob is that he's having to work out alone with an experienced dancer. The craft of accompaniment is usually learned or passed down from a mentor by playing along side them. So for this reason I can understand how confusing or frustrating this could become. Breaking the communication barrier with dancers is an art in itself.
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Rob)
Rob without going into too much detail just remember this : when you dont know whats going on just stick to the compas of the respective palo No matter what they do it will go with the compas.
Even a experienced player dosent always know what the dancer is doing thats when they just keep the compas straight. as long as you are in compas youl never be acused of beeing wrong.
in Alegria, buleria, solea etc all the 12 beat compas you can can always start the Lamada on 1 and end on 10 no matter what they do you will always be in compas.
use your foot for timing (most important thing to accompaning dancers).
Start out with this everything else will folow, accompaning dancers becomes second nature.
...man, these are difficult to really appreciate when discussed with words. If ever there was a need for a video/dvd....to educate both the dancer and the guitarist so that they can at least communicate on a basic level. Oh well..
Jaleo are coming to my neck of the woods soon. Maybe I'll be able to observe examples of the above list?
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Rob)
Rob i got a solea recording from a concert we did with a dancer, i can upload it for you if that will be any usefull to you, let me know, u can hear the footwork and what the guitar does.
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Rob)
Rob,
It's one of those things that just has to click!
Your compas has to be solid and you need to be confident that you are correct. Dancers throw in contra beats or speed up /slow down, if you are a bit unsure about were you are, you'll assume you've lost it and pause, that's when it all goes wrong.
I'm no great expert, but if it would help, i'd be happy to come up to see you and your dancer and might be that playing with another guitar will help you get started.
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Jim Opfer)
I'm no great expert, but if it would help, i'd be happy to come up to see you and your dancer and might be that playing with another guitar will help you get started.
Thanks Jim! It would be great to have your experience to observe and sort us out. But can you make the following date - Thursday 27 May 4.30 to 6.30pm? From 4.30 to 6pm will just be us and the dance teacher. The class starts at 6pm, but I have to leave that day at 6.30. You would be welcome, doubtless, to stay on until the end of the class.
My initial idea was to have a few meetings with the dance teacher over the summer before the classes commence in September. She runs a Beginners (6 to 7pm) class and an Improvers class (7 to 8.30pm).
I could meet you anywhere in Dundee. What areas do you know?
Rob PS A poignant soleares floats forth from Celtic Park as Henrik bids a tearful farewell...He will be missed!
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Rob)
Rob,
I'll check my office diary tomorrow and let you know, don't think it'll be a problem.
Ah! yes, the king of kings, I was there this afternoon to see two masterful goals against a Dundee United outfit that played very well. Nice to see DU fans stay on and join in on the farewell celebrations.
That floating Soleares turns to Buleria when Sevilla come for the fiesta match, week on Tuesday.
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Rob)
Hi Rob & Jim, I would quite like to make that date as well if that's OK, as I've no experience in accompanying, but I'm sure I could play the odd chord here and there and it sounds fun. 4.30's a bit tight, since my wife doesn't get back with the car till 3.30, but leave it with me. My only experience of Dundee is all those roundabouts through the City! LOL!
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Ron.M)
Wow...this dance teacher is in for one heck of a surprise! I'll do my best to clear my teaching committments later that night, so I should be free for the whole thing. Don't worry, Ron, if you can't make the 4.30 start. Just turn up when you can. Directions for you are easy (assuming you are driving): just go straight through the roundabouts as you enter the outskirts of Dundee, until you come to the 'double roundabout'. Turn right along Kingsway West and right again at the next roundabout as signposted for Dundee College. 1st left takes you into the carpark of the college. Ahead of you is The Space. Ask for Linda Skakel's room.
Jim, if you can make it: entering Dundee from Perth: 1st roundabout - follow signs for Kingsway (dual carriageway). A mile or two later will be a roundabout with a direction to Dundee College. Then, as above.
Anyone else - fly to Edinburgh with connection to Dundee Airport - taxi to The Space. Well, you never know...
RE: My first time - for Jim and Ron (in reply to Jim Opfer)
If you have any flamenco guitars for sale below or around one thousand quid, bring them along on Thursday next week as my friend Gordon is looking to buy. Rob PS Sorry to those this email does not apply to
RE: My first time accompanying a dan... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
ORIGINAL: AndyB It's a freakin' bear.
Genuine question Andy - if its really this complicated, the rule book is now out the window, and dancers all have their own set ways of doing things, do you still enjoy it?
How much satisfaction do you get from accompanying compared with playing solo?
Printable Version
. I can certainly sympathize with you. Here is a link to the Miguelito's DC Flamenco website. There's a nice article he wrote there regarding dance class acompaniment. 
Maybe a group effort? 
. These parts are usually worked out in advance. I've learned to read the body language to help determine which is which. On desplantes the body position and momentum signals they are going to continue dancing for another round of compases. On the llamada, the body language is usually very distinct in saying 'Okay I'm done dancing, here is my mark, let's end on 10'. Of course this depends on the dancer's skill and style. With some there is no visible distinction, so you kind of have to wing it. A lot of what's done these days is a cut and paste of different steps from different choreographies, because everyone is learning different steps from different teachers and styles. For the guitarist this can be frustrating because while the pieced together sections might make sense to the dancer, it may or may not make rhythmic sense to the guitarist. The difficulty for Rob is that he's having to work out alone with an experienced dancer. The craft of accompaniment is usually learned or passed down from a mentor by playing along side them. So for this reason I can understand how confusing or frustrating this could become. Breaking the communication barrier with dancers is an art in itself. 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread