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RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jaquarda)
i watched the bullfighting on jerez onda tv on the sunday when i didnt have classes with el carbonero, it was the bullfight i sanlucar i saw.
i was pretty disgusted with it but watched it to the end due to a perverse curiosity. needless to say the end was not pretty, though i did see the matador get one in the thigh, and get lifted about 6 feet in the air. i was like ,what a twanger.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to mediocre)
Mediocre makes a very good point.... If the matador was fighting an Irish Red Setter, or a large poodle instead of an ugly bull, would people be so enthusiastic about bullfighting? As to my opinion? It's part of Spanish life, whether they continue with it or not, is up to them, not me. I have been to a few bullfights at the invitation of friends, but all I experienced at them was a cold chill!
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Kate)
Interesting discussion.
quote:
Emilio's album is called Temple, after the elegant movement a matador makes with his cape.
That's good to know. I just knew the word 'temple' from old Spanish music (1600s) where it means the tuning of the guitar (or vihuela)...another connection, perhaps? At least, a nice coincidence.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Pimientito)
quote:
BTW- The idea that bull fighting is not dangerous and the bulls are drugged and tamed and tortured before fights is not accurate.
And just to make sure...this from today's news:
Bulls to be dope-tested
Graham Keeley in Madrid The Guardian, Tuesday April 22 2008
Doping tests are to be introduced for the first time at Spain's most prestigious bullfighting festival after allegations that bulls are given drugs to make the matador's job easier.
Breeders at next month's Feria de San Isidro face fines of up to €60,000 (about £48,000) if they are proved to have given their bulls drugs. Blood and urine samples will be taken from bulls that vets think are behaving strangely.
Bulls undergo other tests before they enter the ring, but this will be the first time they are subjected to specific anti-doping tests. They were ordered by Francisco Granados, who heads the Madrid regional government's bullfighting authority. At first they will apply only to the Feria de San Isidro, but could be carried out at other bullfights within the Madrid region.
Breeders and organisers have long been suspected of rigging la corrida. Since the 1940s, there have been claims that the tips of horns have been shaved to make the bulls less deadly or even less aggressive.
The two most commonly used drugs are said to be tranquillisers and corticosteroids. Ricardo Mirat, a vet at Las Ventas bullring in Madrid, said that corticosteroids "give the bull more resistance and can disguise a limp or an injury which allows the animal to pass initial tests".
In 2002, an investigation was opened after bulls in fights in Bilbao appeared to behave strangely, but was inconclusive.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to mediocre)
quote:
"her post"
@ Jaquarda: it's not "her" but HIS post...:-) I insist on it :-). Jan = John ...I'm a man.
To be honest; if you can not appreciate the bullfighting in any way (not necceserily all the way, 'cause I to have got my doubts about certain aspects of it.) then you can't feel certain dimensions of flamenco. Basta.
It's like some guys in here " I like flamenco except the canté" ...WTHF
Ever been to a corrida?? : Lot's of you guys think the whole thing is about the killing of the animal, and altough it's and important part, it's the actual "dance" with the torro that makes it an art. Do you guys think the spectators are bloodthirsty and are all waiting for the kill? WRONG. It's not like the Romans with their colloseum. It's not sheer amusement for the people.
Some of you do miss the deeper dimension in it. Why don't you start with actually visiting a corrida and feel the atmosphere, it's pretty intense but always serene.
JW
PS. Nothing personal off course and I'm not saying I feel all of "flamenco's dimensions" (if even there are such things )
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to mediocre)
I think all the talking about "dimensions" and "deeper meaning" in flamenco and beeing able to feel it, are a bit exaggerated. Flamenco of today is not what it was a couple of years ago. And that what I saw on stage at the last festival was less flamenco and more contemporary dance. I think all the hype about the "real" flamenco maybe existed some decades ago. Today it became more an musicgenre like jazz and more a dancestyle like all the others, which are bloated with subsequently interpretated theory and declaration of some things they did in past as "traditional" and "pure". Its like the interpretation of poems of people who are already dead and who didnt wrote down the meaning for their poems. Now they constructed a whole science around some of them...all a bit far-fetched IMO and rightless. Its the same in the fashion buisness, it changes even faster than flamenco,..and the renewing in flamenco is already damn fast. Who has the right to tell, which fashion is "stylish, tastefull or bad"? IMO it depends on every unique person. I dont think that some "fashion-gurus" have the right to decide for me. Thanks for their ideas, but I choose by myself. Why should it be worse to just likeing the music in flamenco or just liking one part of the music? Why should it the requirement to like all facets of flamenco? Thats totally wrong to think so IMO. If one think by oneself, there are dozens of examples, why it doenst make sense.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to mediocre)
quote:
think all the talking about "dimensions" and "deeper meaning" in flamenco and beeing able to feel it, are a bit exaggerated. Flamenco of today is not what it was a couple of years ago. And that what I saw on stage at the last festival was less flamenco and more contemporary dance. I think all the hype about the "real" flamenco maybe existed some decades ago. Today it became more an musicgenre like jazz and more a dancestyle like all the others, which are bloated with subsequently interpretated theory and declaration of some things they did in past as "traditional" and "pure". Its like the interpretation of poems of people who are already dead and who didnt wrote down the meaning for their poems. Now they constructed a whole science around some of them...all a bit far-fetched IMO and rightless. Its the same in the fashion buisness, it changes even faster than flamenco,..and the renewing in flamenco is already damn fast. Who has the right to tell, which fashion is "stylish, tastefull or bad"? IMO it depends on every unique person. I dont think that some "fashion-gurus" have the right to decide for me. Thanks for their ideas, but I choose by myself.
I agree 100%
quote:
Why should it be worse to just likeing the music in flamenco or just liking one part of the music? Why should it the requirement to like all facets of flamenco?
It isn't worse or it isn't required, you go as far in it as you want to IMO, so again I agree with you.
But I do think that Flamenco is (far!) more than the musical genre (FOR ME that is doitsujin). It's far more powerfull, it's a kind of awareness. For me personally Flamenco IS the tragical and mystical existence of men. And not only music expresses it, also the bullfighting... Just listen to an old seguiriya recording(for me that says it all), you can never call that just a musical genre (not saying you did).
But you have a point when you say that it is a bit exaggerated to get all lyrical and poetic about it.
So for some people the bullfighting represents something, so they don't see it merily as torture (altough there is no need to deny the suffering of the animal). But of course if you don't share that idea, I can perfectly understand why people detest it so much.
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