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Bogdan1980

 

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

Claude Worms 

Is anyone familiar with Claude Worms publications devoted to individual palos? He's got these books that deal with each separate palo. There is quite a few on Bulerias like Buleria 2A, 2b, and so on. I'm assuming that the 2A would be the first of the series, a simpler one, and one to start with?

Guitarbudda recommended one of them to me once, he by the way is not posting anymore. Probably couldn't take the ignorance of us - the mortals.

Anyhow, another questions is do the publications come with CDs, or the buyer should buy the records of each of the artists in the book?
Thanks for info
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2008 16:43:09
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

ive picked up these books when i was in a music store in england a while back, they are very good however i would have preffered the cd with them, you basically have to have a huge flamenco cd library or a very good ear for melody.
they do however have complete falsetas and some full pieces, i regret not getting the buleria with quique paredes cipres on it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2008 16:50:49
 
prd1

 

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

I have a few of these books - none of them come with CDs.

When these books first came out I think the idea was that the books were to be split into the era i.e. A was the oldies and C the most recent recordings - I'm not too sure if they stayed with this concept.

I think that the books are aimed at guitarists looking to expand the repetoire of falsetas rather than a teaching aid to learn the palo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2008 17:08:31
 
Bogdan1980

 

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

Well, I've been fighting with Bulerias for quite a while now. And I'm looking for some tradtional bulerias, that are clear. So I can really internalize the rhythm. Ornamentation is not the focus, but the compas is. And I know Cepero, Nino Ricardo have got some classic stuff. So I wanted to get their transcriptions. Claude Worms offers them but no CD. Then I have to dig for a right CD with those compositions. Bummer.

How are the transcriptins themselves, clear? Accurate?
As I understand it's both notation and tabs? I want a decent notation, not just tab.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2008 19:40:10
 
Estevan

Posts: 1938
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

The notation is very good.
As the others have said, they are primarily collections of falsetas, to help foreigners learn some of the repertoire that would be common knowledge in Spain (according to Worms's intro). There is a useful introductory section on compás rasg, which appears at the beginning of each volume. There are a couple of complete compositions here and there but mostly it's just excerpts. The one with Sabicas in might be useful for your purposes. (deflamenco.com lists the contents of each volume).

If you can read French, there's some useful material (PDFs and MP3s) downloadable here:
http://cours-musique.tablature-guitare.com/guitare/flamenco.html

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2008 20:03:51
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

quote:

And I'm looking for some tradtional bulerias, that are clear. So I can really internalize the rhythm.


These books, called duende flamenco wont help you. They are very well notaded but its ONLY falsetas, and before playing tons of falsetas do yourself a favor to learn the base. Play with CD´s, videos, tapes, whatever. You wont find basic rythmical stuff on paper which is worth the time.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2008 21:18:33
 
Bogdan1980

 

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

Yes that's why I wondered if they have a CD. Right now I have a nice buleria by Paco Cepero. Seams to be realitevely basic. And if I get the transcription for it, I think it will serve as a good basis.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2008 21:58:19
 
Samarto

Posts: 160
Joined: Mar. 21 2008
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

I agree with Anders ... leave the falsetas alone until you get the rhythm perfect. I know from personal experience that correcting bad habits isn't easy. I might suggest the Graf-Martinez book with CD and DVD. I got it for my granddaughter and found myself using it to correct faulty compas. His compas clock that can be downloaded from his DVD is a necessity. I have purchased several different books with CD's and found them disappointing, but the Graf-Martinez set is the best out there in my opinion for getting the compas correct.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2008 22:25:13
 
michel

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 17 2008 8:38:04
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2008 7:36:28
 
Bogdan1980

 

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

Thanks, all.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2008 12:47:31
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

I also recommand Graf Martinez.

But Merengue de Cordoba.....well, imo the rasgueados technique he uses (Shhhramm - Shhhramm) is too old fashioned and can not be recommanded....oh, and he plays over the soundhole (also not recommanded )

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2008 18:52:07
 
greeny

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

I got this new title by Claude Worms: Desde la Guitarra... ARMONÍA DEL FLAMENCO .
It comes with downloadable midi files; the combination of printed sheet with midi works pretty well for me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 19 2008 22:29:19
 
gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: Rhythmical instruction (was Clau... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

You wont find basic rythmical stuff on paper which is worth the time.


So true, and it so bugs me, why is that? Why no one ever did a good rhythmical instruction DVD, for a bunch of palos.

Also most DVDs focus on solo playing, not accompanying baile. There are very few for accompanying cante like the Oscar Herrero DVDs for Solea and Alegria, but there is not a lot of rhythm teaching in them. They are a start though, he does offer some rhythmical patterns.

I see here a business opportunity if anyone wants to rise to the challenge...

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Guy
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2008 4:28:18
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1900
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Rhythmical instruction (was Clau... (in reply to gshaviv

i found some of his transcriptions very inaccurate and coincidentally these are of the pieces that are also transcribed by Faucher, i guess there's an agreement between them or just doesn't want to risk a fight with him, but the fingering in some of the pieces is very off...
i've gotten used to Faucher's way of writing the bulerías too so sometimes it gets confusing for me...sometimes Worms overcomplicates things...
but otherwise his work is the best out there excluding Alain Faucher's stuff but i felt i spent too much money on his 6 bulerías books...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 21 2008 1:06:31
 
Brendan

Posts: 357
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

If your French is up to it, this interview is interesting:

https://youtu.be/o2MBn8bACDY?si=EVW1QHmg7DVpqZus

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2024 11:57:02
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1626
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Brendan

Merci. I don't understand one single word. Anyone sum up what he said in this interview?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2024 12:15:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14914
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Brendan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brendan

If your French is up to it, this interview is interesting:

https://youtu.be/o2MBn8bACDY?si=EVW1QHmg7DVpqZus


I have a couple of his books. A lot of inaccuracies compared to Faucher and others. I like to used score books to follow along rather than to learn from, so I still appreciate the work as a contribution. I don’t have French, so I for one would appreciate a brief summery. The comments allude to a “true history” of flamenco, that I would be interested to hear.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2024 16:12:10
 
Brendan

Posts: 357
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Ricardo

He doesn’t have anything to say about the middle decades of the 19th century.

The ‘history’ is just him telling his own flamenco story and reflecting on how flamenco changed from the 1960s to now. How difficult it was to learn to accompany cante, how you must learn to respond to the singer’s decisions on the fly. Mortifying experiences where he learned this. His first exposure to live cante at a festival in Almeria gripped by Mairenismo. How he realised that he wasn’t going to be a pro player, how he hit on transcriptions as a way of participating in Flamenco.

The interesting bits for me were an argument about why it’s difficult to come up with a genuinely new estilo (I’d want to listen again before I could summarise it). Then there’s a claim that playing with a rhythm section liberated PdL to play much longer melodic lines than was possible in falsetas. He pushes back against some bits of romanticism, e.g. yes, some flamencos do learn the art from family members, but everyone learns from touring performers and from recordings (which have been available for a century or more). So let’s not overdo the family-transmission thing. He doesn’t like any noble-savage stuff about untutored geniuses playing or singing by intuition, because, like any art, there’s a huge amount of work to produce the effect of direct, intuitive performance, and this should be recognised and respected. The day of the pure flamenco guitarist is over because guitarists are rounded musicians now who could play other stuff and probably do. There’s no point regretting any of these changes.

He understood early on that he’ll always play like a Parisian who lives in a comfortable district, because that’s who he is. Play it, respect it, don’t get into cosplay (he didn’t use that term).

Flamenco has the discipline of classical, the freedom of jazz and the energy of rock.


So, nothing extraordinary, but interesting reflections of someone who has been studying flamenco for a long time and thinking about his own relation to it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2024 20:29:00
 
Brendan

Posts: 357
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Ricardo

“L’histoire vécue” is the lived history or oral history. The other comments thank him for this ‘testimony’.

I forgot one other interesting thing, he claimed that in the late sixties nobody in Spain was playing Ramon Montoya material because the recordings hadn’t been reissued.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2024 20:39:40
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14914
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Brendan

Thanks for that summary sir! About Ramon Montoya, I don’t understand that at all….everybody from Diego del gastor, to paco de Lucia, to Sabicas in the US, was playing Ramon’s licks. Paco’s first recording has Rondeña note for note, 1964. For sure that BAM record made it out of France.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2024 15:51:45
 
Brendan

Posts: 357
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Ricardo

His teacher introduced him to Manuel Cano (he relates at about 12’), and he took some lessons from Cano. He tells a story about a concert where the young PdL was the opener, then Serranito and finally at the top of the bill, Cano.

Cano recorded an album of Ramon Montoya material in 1964, and according to Worms toured it a lot and made a name for himself with it. So maybe that’s where PdL got the idea of doing the Rondeña. And perhaps Cano told Worms that it was he, Cano, who reintroduced Montoya to Spain.



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Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2024 23:25:27
 
Stu

Posts: 2579
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Brendan

Genuinely always seemed to avoid him due to his surname. 🪱🪱
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 29 2024 11:46:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14914
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Brendan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brendan

His teacher introduced him to Manuel Cano (he relates at about 12’), and he took some lessons from Cano. He tells a story about a concert where the young PdL was the opener, then Serranito and finally at the top of the bill, Cano.

Cano recorded an album of Ramon Montoya material in 1964, and according to Worms toured it a lot and made a name for himself with it. So maybe that’s where PdL got the idea of doing the Rondeña. And perhaps Cano told Worms that it was he, Cano, who reintroduced Montoya to Spain.




Interesting possibility. There is a simple way to rule it out, but I can’t find the audio of that track on line. I did find a live performance by Cano in the 80s, and the phrasing was significantly different than Montoya’s version, where as Paco is copying Montoya’s phrasing almost exactly. But perhaps Cano changed it and used to do it more like Ramon and that would be what paco copied? I will keep looking.




One thing I notice just with these two is that Cano has a more lyrical free expression, vs. Montoya’s manic stop start rhythmic phrasing. Things like the Verdiales compas on the tonic C# chord (1 &ah2 &ah3 &) that bookend the Levantica falseta for example. Paco could not have intuited that on his own, if Cano’s version was always like that (meaning he doesn’t do it here).

EDIT: Aha! I was right I think, Paco is getting from Ramon not Cano, or he couldn’t have intuited that detail (same spot described 1964 and 1988). Here is the Cano 1964 version at 7:36:

https://youtu.be/XSIy54I9NIA?si=RGHIpikq_r3BUT8i

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 29 2024 12:12:19
 
Brendan

Posts: 357
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Ricardo

I see what you mean. I rather like it.

Do you know what year the French reissue of Ramon’s recordings was? Maybe it provoked a little ripple of people interpreting his stuff. Worms is vague about the dates of his stories—fair enough, he’s reminiscing, not talking to the police.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2024 0:20:50
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1806
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

There is a simple way to rule it out, but I can’t find the audio of that track on line.


OK, I’ve added that track to Audio and Video Uploads.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2024 2:21:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14914
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Brendan

quote:

Do you know what year the French reissue of Ramon’s recordings was?


I don’t find a specific year, the label has no date and the jacket refers to the original 78s of 1936. I am not real clear why the 78rpm version would not have been popular in Spain? Long before Paco, Sabicas was learning from Ramon’s records and those all would have been 78s anyway, cante or solo. The Faucher transcription book has an intro about the recording event from Zayas, stating a contract for at least 6 7 inch discs (there are 12 tracks on the LP), and the album was advertised/listed between Monteverdi and Bach selections from the same BAM company. There is a discrepancy of date of his death, Zayas giving 1949, and the jacket giving 1951.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2024 12:03:37
 
orsonw

Posts: 1944
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Ricardo

How rare were the original 78s? This looks like a BAM original 78 on ebay, or were 78s also re-released? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314765660965

Discogs shows a 1954 USA reissue. But not showing anything earlier. Some undated 33 1/3 reissues (33 1/3 format started in 1948).
Ramon Montoya Flamenco Arte Clasico Philharmonia Records PH 108
https://www.discogs.com/release/7907003-Ram%C3%B3n-Montoya-Arte-Classico-Flamenco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2024 13:02:28
 
Norman Paul Kliman

 

Posts: 78
Joined: Dec. 5 2023
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Bogdan1980

Don’t forget Montoya’s cante accompaniment recordings. They’ve always been widely available in original format and later as reissues, and they’ve always been a big influence (including during the 1960s, which is what you guys are discussing).

Also, there’s always been an indirect influence of Montoya’s playing through others. Niño Ricardo was very clever and original, but when he recorded toques levantinos (malagueña, taranta, granaína, etc.) on cante recordings, he played Montoya nearly note for note.

Montoya made a few films, too. There are close-up shots of him playing in “Carmen, la de Triana” and, I think, other films. That one came out in 1938 but has been a staple of TV rebroadcasts since then.

My first teacher was montoyista and so was his teacher, who he learned from in the early 1960s.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2024 18:05:42
 
Brendan

Posts: 357
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Norman Paul Kliman

To be fair to Worms here, he’s specifically talking about Montoya’s solo material, and he excludes Sabicas because he’s talking about Spain. And I doubt he intended to suggest that all memory or influence of Montoya had vanished. That would be mad. All he says is that few players were performing the solos as concert pieces—which could still be false for all I know, but it’s not crazy.

I’d also like to say, this thing about Montoya is the one detail that snagged on my mind out of an hour and forty minutes of interview. He comes over as a modest man with a deep respect for the art and its artists. I’ve got a stack of his transcriptions and I’ve just ordered his most recent book.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2024 23:58:16
 
Norman Paul Kliman

 

Posts: 78
Joined: Dec. 5 2023
 

RE: Claude Worms (in reply to Brendan

Pepe Martínez and Luis Maravilla were also montoyistas (much more so than Niño Ricardo) who were active in the 1960s.

quote:

To be fair to Worms here, he’s specifically talking about Montoya’s solo material,...


If he says that, I guess my post is irrelevant.

quote:

He comes over as a modest man with a deep respect for the art and its artists.


Yes, that seems beyond question.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2024 6:30:20
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