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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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 RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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well lets not play around with sayings lol let me save you the trouble of guessing  I have no idea about notation, i dont think its relevant in flamenco, i mean u can use it just fine..but no better no worse then tab and audio, and even with notation you need audio, and since tab is eazyer and quicker to learn i went that way 
if you have the audio you dont need to doublechek anything , its all right there, there no need for "2 hands", audio is everything, audio is god , regardless of what the notation says.
so to check it against notation, its a waiste of time, its not any more helpfull is like doing the same thing twice, its like asking a b grade actor if the A grade actor is any good..its like checking what God is doing against the Bible there is no second opinion that matters.
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Date Feb. 13 2008 15:39:24
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
well lets not play around with sayings lol let me save you the trouble of guessing I have no idea about notation, i dont think its relevant in flamenco, i mean u can use it just fine..but no better no worse then tab and audio, and even with notation you need audio, and since tab is eazyer and quicker to learn i went that way
if you have the audio you dont need to doublechek anything , its all right there, there no need for "2 hands", audio is everything, audio is god , regardless of what the notation says.
so to check it against notation, its a waiste of time, its not any more helpfull is like doing the same thing twice, its like asking a b grade actor if the A grade actor is any good..its like checking what God is doing against the Bible there is no second opinion that matters.
I agree.
Most important in Flamenco guitar imo is VIDEO (with Audio).
I think classic guitar is a complete different story.
In flamenco there are other rules to learn.
If you are a musical person and have sence for flamenco music and if you dont have the possibility to
learn by looking to a teacher LIVE, then best way to learn is by watching and hearing to other
flamenco guitarists (Video+Audio).
I deleted all Notes and Tabs from which i dont have the Video or Audio.
For me they are useless because from Notes or Tabs i cant figure out how and with which feel they should be played.
But if i have the Video and Audio, TABS are helpful to find out the fingerings from the parts which you
can not figure out by watching to the Hands in the Video OR by hearing to the Audio.
p.s. not so long ago, flamenco guitar was teached from one person to another by watching to him and trying to copy him.
Nowadays we have Video which is nearly similar to meeting the person live.
All the Encuentro Vids and other teaching videos are the fastest and best way to learn for those who dont have a good flamenco guitar teacher.
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Date Feb. 13 2008 23:09:40
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Patrick
Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)
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quote:
I agree and disagree with Patrick. Learning the notes for a piece and then hoping to get the meaning after doesn't work for any style, not for classical not for rock and not for country and western. The special difficulties with flamenco are a lot to do with people blindly sticking to a way of notating things which is just plain wrong. This is true not just of Bulerias but also Sivilannas, fandangos, alegrias and solea.
More power too you, if you can pull it off. So far, I haven’t heard anyone do it successfully, but I can be proven wrong. The best score in the world will never replace the original recording for the subtle timing that makes flamenco what it is. Grisha likely reads as well or better than anyone here, yet I can assure you he has spent hundreds of hours picking apart the recordings of PDL and Sabicas not for the notes....he can get that from a book.
Is learning from a score wrong? No, not at all...it's just a tool. Use everything you can get your hands on. But if you haven’t got a clue about the basic rhythm structure, you’re just throwing darts at a moving target. Todd K is constantly saying it. “Get grounded” and only then move on. The problem is, the more we ignore this fact, the more we go backwards.
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Date Feb. 14 2008 2:43:37
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Bogdan1980
Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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Notation helps always. For instance La Catedral, it's streightforward 6/8, which means you accent 1 and 4. In flamenco it doesn't seem to work that way. First of all you accent 3 and 6, and 1 is unaccented. Bulerias is worse cause it' compound meter. So it's 6/8 nd 3/4. Even alegrias is weird; it's indicated in 3/4 but if you lay Barrio la VIna on it, it doesn't always fit. So I know I have to stick to 12 count. But in bulerias with strumming patterns it's very hard to tell where what is. Especially with abundance of pauses and syncopation.
And again since pauses and syncopation are always present in PdL, especially in recent things, compas by PdL is hard to learn. So I repeat for the third time, it's not that Paco plays out of compas, it's that you can't start understanding simple conventional Bulerias through his pieces. Maybe some of you talented ones can, but it doesn't work for me.
Teacher is absolutely indispensable. I rely on classical guitar teacher a lot. For flamenco there are no teachers here. And I've lost faith in video methods. Perhaps the ones you guys recommend are good, but I am a bit reserved to drop $50 on something that won't help. I'll try Ricardo's lesson over the weekend. And I heard many good things about Graf Martinez vII. For some reason Amazon.com only has volume 1. So I'll look for it.
Basic rhythm structure is exactly what I'm after for bulerias. I want a simple strum that can exemplify accents and all. Something that I can then add falsetas to, or something that when I look at Paco's transcriptions I can identify similarities.
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Date Feb. 14 2008 3:08:55
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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personally find agreement with everyone's views here.
Florian: exactly right about using the ear. Vast majority of flamenco's don't read so you can't say that is necessary or even helpful to read notes for flamenco especially.
Guitarbuddha: exactly right that if notated PROPERLY, a good score is a great tool for deciphering thing, especially involving fast rhythms. And anything that is played in time on a tempered instrument (guitar) has the potential to be notated VERY precisely. Even dynamics, accentuations, and even swing, stresses, synchopation, etc, etc. Knowing how to read rhythms, AND having a GOOD score can eliminate even the need for a video or teacher OR recording, believe it or not. But when it comes to flamenco, I would say there are almost NO "good" scores as I am defining above. But the potential is there.
Arash I think talked about video. Absolutely, a great way to learn. For sure you have guys trying to learn that simply CAN"T see it on the video, but for alot of us, it is really faster and easier to get details than a score or just by ear. Of course nothing can replace a teacher who can correct you face to face, but every student needs to learn to be self critical, record him/herself and self correct. I personally love videos, and if I have one, I don't need a score, though I can read pretty good too and recognize it's importance. You see in a vid, the flamenco players usually tap the foot, and bam you have your beat reference. So figuring out rhythms based on the foot tap visual, is just as easy to me as seeing it written with bar lines and subdivisions.
OK, so while I agree with all you guys, the problem I have is that if you get a score written wrong, same problem as if you learn by ear and you dont' have the proper INTERNAL beat reference, you could be learning WRONG totally, and wasting time, since later you will have to UNLEARN it which turns out to be fantastically difficult. The reason for so many flaky scores for flamenco, is because guitarists that don't read well or study drums say, make the transcription. Also the way Encuentro Faucher for exmaple do bulerias, is based on it's relation to Solea COUNTING that dancers might use, and not to true rudimentary rhythmic phrasing. Someone like Ailsa who studied percussion and can read good, trying to learn the rhythms from a BAD score,COULD BE internalizing the phrasing wrong right of the bat. (Of course she has the advantage of being a dancer, so knowing how the music should fit excludes her from my point). BUT in the case of many good readers of scores (rare for guitarists honestly), they also have good enough ears to correct the flaws. For example, I have no problem adapting to Faucher's way of having the bar lines wrong, I can visualize the phrasing either way. For example I will tap my foot on 3 instead of 1. (Anyone who reads rhythms good, understands why that is weird to do).
I mean right down to what does a quarter note mean I take issue with so many transcriptions. I mean bulerias with quarter note equals 240+, that is off the scale IMO, those should be 8th notes to anyone that understands beat and groove. So many verbal arguements I have on the net about rhythm stem from folks not being aware of what bpm means when describing rhythm.
Playing for dancers really helps to get the "rudiments" of flamenco internalized, so reading bad scores become less harmful. But I am convinced, that if a GOOD reader is coupled with an equally good score, then Guitarbudda is right on. Too bad for flamenco guitar that case will rarely occur, perhaps never. Hence Florian's ear method and Arash's vid method will always be the better option. If only we had recording technology back it Bach's era through Mozart and Beethoven. Who would not prefer to have nice video of Bach playing his organ, rather than a score????
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 14 2008 7:24:31
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)
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quote:
And again since pauses and syncopation are always present in PdL, especially in recent things, compas by PdL is hard to learn. So I repeat for the third time, it's not that Paco plays out of compas, it's that you can't start understanding simple conventional Bulerias through his pieces. Maybe some of you talented ones can, but it doesn't work for me.
About syncopation, which scares a lot of folks, this is how I feel about it.
Rudiments are rhythmic combos that students learn and gets used to, so when they see them occur in a different situation they become easy to feel and execute at various speeds. So in flamenco, when beginners learn compas, they are learning certain rudiments, and confuse those for just he BASIC fundamental beat. True, there are a lot defining rudiments for something like bulerias, but the point is, the BASE has to be solid. You can learn the base from some patterns, but too often ONE certain pattern gets too much focus and then the student is stuck with that. As soon as a variation comes in, or off beat, basically, a DIFFERENT rudiment, then they are lost. That is why it is important to play for dance, because you HAVE to pick up on a lot of important rudiments and phrases that you dont' get form just strumming or guitar solos. Although, many guitar solos have them in there or are based on those patterns, a student might not pick that up by ear on from a score.
So, once the base is established properly, the fundamental beat, and some rudiments to get refer to, then when new synchopations come in to be learned, they are quickly absorbed, felt, and memorized. It is like you have a map, and you over lay the synchopations on top and can clearly see how they fit. Like in golf, you play the ball where ever it lands and don't worry so much. Same with synchopations, you just keep the beat going and things fall into place. No need to squeeze and square things into your 12 box rudiment you learned at first. You just keep a beat, it is that simple, and play the notes "as they lie" relative to the beat. You can actually learn in real time that way, by repeating or looping notes from one beat to the next, adding more as you get more solid, and never worrying about 12 or whatever, because in the end it all adds up assuming you felt each note correct relative to the beat you maintain. Like Guitarbudda said, everything is either on or off the beat in someway, so it is not so hard to figure on that small scale.
So the more patterns you learn, easier it gets to fit them over your compas "blue print".
About moraito being easy once again, my point was really that I have not heard anyone doing Moraito so correctly in rhythm, that did not ALSO know some paco, tomatito, etc. Once you learn some of those rudimentary patterns, you realize, Morao is just as hard or easy as most of the other guys, and it just comes down to taste of the style.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 14 2008 7:45:02
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Conrad
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Ricardo)
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Hi, Ricardo. I'd really like to learn what you mean by this: quote:
I mean right down to what does a quarter note mean I take issue with so many transcriptions. I mean bulerias with quarter note equals 240+, that is off the scale IMO, those should be 8th notes to anyone that understands beat and groove. So many verbal arguements I have on the net about rhythm stem from folks not being aware of what bpm means when describing rhythm.
Can you elaborate? Because I know I'm guilty of doing this when I used to transcibe. I did this because I always found it easier to read a bulerias, for example, when the eighth notes represent halves of the basic beat adding up to twelve. Or maybe I just find it much easier to read because of the way the notes are less crowded and grouped in eighths. And are you saying it's only the range above 240 where you get upset? I mean yes, it's very fast, but I'd have to say that for me, it's nice if a palo or rhythm is all written in the same form to maintain consistency and avoid confusion.
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Date Feb. 14 2008 10:48:47
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