Advice on Choice of Bulerias

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Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

Advice on Choice of Bulerias

Can anyone please advice a bulerias which is exemplary of the compas and is fairly easy to get into this palo?

I'm looking for something that one can often hear in Paco's bulerias but of course those are intertwined with complex falsetas and the compas is not very strict I think.

So I'm looking for something that could be a good illustration of a typical bulerias that will sound good as whole piece.

Thanks a lot
Bogdan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 7:30:03

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

i would go for Moraito.
Like Buleriando, etc.
Great compas and not impossible to learn falsetas (but nice).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 7:47:58

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

El Tempul!

If it doesn't kill you, then something else will...

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 7:49:11

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogdan1980

Paco's bulerias ..........the compas is not very strict I think.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 8:10:35

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Sabicas is good and easily in compas but I doubt if it's that easy to play and anyway a lot of folk here think it's pretty corny anyway, so you won't get many compliments on your effort.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 8:21:39

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Sabicas is good and easily in compas but I doubt if it's that easy to play and anyway a lot of folk here think it's pretty corny anyway, so you won't get many compliments on your effort.

cheers,

Ron

What? Sabicas corny? who thinks that. Let me at em' I'll rip em' a new......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 8:27:13

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

I think Ron is mixing up Sabicas with Montoya.

Sabicas is cool

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 8:35:22

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to TANúñez)

LOL! Tom,

Well Flo does to begin with....but he's used to getting a new one ripped, so it doesn't worry him now.
I'm actually thinking about selling "ass-slings" over the Internet now.
Seems a worthwhile product,,,

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 8:35:25

deyo

Posts: 84
Joined: Jan. 12 2006
From: Croatia

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Cepa Andaluza ...at least some of falsetas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 11:05:38

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to deyo)

quote:

and the compas is not very strict I think

I think i know what you mean, its not that its not strict is just not
as well rounded as you would play buleria today, dosent have
the bounce or the strumming dosent fill the compas as much as
it does our days.
This is not beeing disrespectfull i dont think, its facts,
its just a pretty honest (according to me) look at how the flamenco guitar
has evolved.
Obviously you wouldnt compare a car made in the 40s to one made our days.
If Paco was to rerecord that today ofcourse the rithm would be
spectacular, as i am sure this was for that time.

rithm has changed alot since then, And Ron ( you dobber inner

) thats also
the main reason i dont listen to Sabicas, cause the rithm
in the buleria dosent have the bounce and rounded feel,
i like and look for in a buleria (and also the quality of the
recordings and sound of the guitars). I respect it all ..
just dont rush home to put it on. To me a good buleria
makes you wanna dance and do palmas, and bounce on your chair.
While i enjoy the virtouosity of both Sabicas and this peticular Paco
buleria, it dosent affect me the same way.

back in the day it seems like they were all in a great hurry to
finish the song and run to the shops or something cause buleria
was played ridiculously fast, sacrificing the rithm.
(not so much Paco cause he was at the top of the game)
I have so many major released compolation
great old cante cds with great singers with and the
way the guitar is played and rithm ruins it for me.
and so often the rasqueados and compas arent even rounded off evenly.
it fustrates me.

Bogdan any of the Moraito bulerias would do perfectly for
what you are looking for. even the ones that arent transcribed,
are quite eazy to transcribe yourself.

just personal opinion

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 15:11:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Parilla de jerez.

Not that it is real easy, but at least the compas is crystal clear. None of it is "easy" per say, even going back to Ramon Montoya. And Moraito uses lots of syncopation too, not sure why everyone thinks his way to play is so much more approachable than others.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 17:51:32

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1896
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Ricardo)

probably because his fingerings are quite easy to catch...he plays simple things (compared to Paco) and makes it sound difficult by using rhythm and the way he touches the strings...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 20:22:44

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

the compas is not very strict I think.

Hey Bogdan. I know everyone has picked on this point but bulerias is either "en compas" or ...it is not "en compas".
It doesnt make sense to talk about it being not very strict. Its like saying someone is not very pregnant!

As for a good bulerias to learn it has been posted before that nearly everyone from paco to moraito will have easy and difficult falsetas in each composition. Learning any one composition from begining to end will have at least one part that is very hard to copy.
The trouble with paco is that his hard falsetas are insanely difficult. Go through some moraito, pepe habichuela, paco cepero, maybe even put an old diego gastor falseta in there and learn a round 6 or 7 falsetas that are not too hard. Put them together and you will have a good show piece!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 20:38:54

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Hey Bogdan. I know everyone has picked on this point but bulerias is either "en compas" or ...it is not "en compas".
It doesnt make sense to talk about it being not very strict. Its like saying someone is not very pregnant!

sorry man not to disagree with you but if hes refering to what i am thinking, it makes sence what hes saying.

noone is saying is out of compas,

my post above explains more of what my view on it is, nowhere is it mentioned as "out of compas".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 21:17:28

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

the compas is not very strict I think

You probably mean half compás, playing compás through in 3's or in 2's and such.

Tough to find anything where the pros don't take the liberty of being creative. It's also tough to find a good, easy buleria. Old Paco Cepero is good stuff, though a lot sounds easier to play than it really is - like Moraito too.

You can slow down anything that isn't too brutal and make it playable. Best is probably to pick out compás here and there that sound playable instead of trying full falsetas. For that you could check out all your recordings.

Generally the Encuentro books have good playable stuff.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 23:12:01

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

you find most of the falsetas (same or nearly similar falsetas) in the Encuentro book/video of Moraito

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 23:42:40

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

And Moraito uses lots of syncopation too, not sure why everyone thinks his way to play is so much more approachable than others.

Ricardo

Thats true, but you can play moraito falsetas at lower tempo and they still sound good. The difficult thing with Moraito ist to get the feeling and the sound for each note like him.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2008 23:50:18

Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Does the Tomatito Encuentro video have a bulerias in it? And, if it does, does it include any of the falsetas in this video:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 0:57:24

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I'm actually thinking about selling "ass-slings" over the Internet now.
Seems a worthwhile product,,,

LOL.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 1:26:02

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Francisco)

quote:

Does the Tomatito Encuentro video have a bulerias in it? And, if it does, does it include any of the falsetas in this video:

Tomatito goes over a lot of Bulerias falsetas in the Encuentro video and yes, some from the video you posted. However, Tomatito is not one that is 'fairly easy to get into'. From a beginners standpoint that is. Unless you have good grasp on the compas. Tomatito is the king of the Bulerias IMO.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 1:30:47

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Paco's stuff has too much variability in it. It is in compas but it's not strictly theoretical if that makes sense. I play Barrio La Vina for example, if you try to fit it into classic 12 count alegrias it's a mess. Things end and start athalf compas, a lot of pauses where there is supposed to be an accent etc. In other words, Paco's bulerias have too much liberty; he's so in sync with compas he can allow freedom.

Clearly, it would not be a good way to understand bulerias compas, that's why I aksed for something more streightforward. Difficulty of falsetas are not really that much of an issue, I'm trying to stay away from complex syncopated rhythms and find something that adheres to your usual 12 cound with accents on 3,6,8,10,12. Hope this clarifies.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 2:00:21

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Ricardo

Who is the author of Parilla de jerez? Thanks for the info.

Thanks to all for suggestions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 2:04:20

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Bogdan,

Parrilla de Jerez is a guitarist.

https://www.flamenco-world.com/tienda/autor/parrilla-de-jerez/733/

For straight forward compas, I think your best bet would be to study the old masters. Niño Ricardo, Sabicas, Parrilla, etc.etc. Listening to the cante more will also give you a better understanding.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 2:16:21

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Hey Tom

Yeah that was stupid. I just read up on Parilla de Jerez and wanted to edit the post but you beat me to it. Thanks anyway.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 2:35:26

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Now that I know what to go for, are there transcriptions availbale or does one rely on video and learn from it?

Another question, I read that bulerias are mostly if not always played with a capo to make the sound more vibrant. Is that true?

Shoot, for some reason Solea is so much clearer (as far as compas) than bulerias. The strumming patterns absolutely make no sense...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 3:32:48

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

The strumming patterns absolutely make no sense...

Not to be presumptuous, but it sounds like you are putting the cart before the horse. It sounds like you are approaching this in a classical guitar sense; by learning a "piece" and hoping it all makes sense in the end. Sorry it ain't going to work. I think you need to get grounded in basic rhythm patterns before you go any further. If you don't, you are going to be just playing a bunch of notes that don't make any sense (compas wise).

Here is where I would start: http://www.flamenco-teacher.com/lps?lpv=1016

This is an outstanding lesson by Ricardo. Sure it cost a few bucks, but it's well worth it.

Trust me, it’s not worth trying to take a short cut. It will only hurt you in the long run.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 6:10:10

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Bogdan,

A lot of us just learn many different falsetas and put them together with different compas patterns. There is nothing wrong with learning a complete piece though.

I don't know what your skill level is but the Vol.II of the Graf-Martinez flamenco methods have a nice little section on Bulerias compas alone. A lot of good info.

Bulerias is/was tough for me as it is for many. Solea is pretty straight forward. Starting on 1 and accenting on 3,6,8,10 and 12. You can stick to learning a Bulerias with this same structure. There's a lot of ways to play it but since your familiar with the Solea/Alegrias structure, why not do a Bulerias in the same way for now since your familiar with it? Then later, move to a different way of playing it.

It could also be that your not really ready for Bulerias yet which is why your not able to see things clearly. I had to listen to a lot of it, and I mean a lot of it. Especially with the cante. I then begin to hear and notice little things that weren't evident early on. Once I started experiencing this, it made it easier. I'm still no pro at Bulerias but I'm making progress.

Now, my way of doing things is not "THE" only way. My teacher had me start off with Solea. Other's teach Bulerias first. Some say if you can play Bulerias, you can play anything.

I think an excellent method if you don't already have it is Encuentro's Merengue de Cordoba. A lot of tradional palos including Bulerias are covered. Nothing fancy. Pretty traditional stuff but not boring.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 6:42:27

Mark2

Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)

A capo is optional unless your playing for a singer. Even then, there are a few options. Patrick has offered excellent advice. For a guitarist already versed in other styles, it may seem redundant and boring to focus on seemingly small details when the whole piece seems to be within your grasp, but like Patrick said, the result will leave a lot to be desired, particularly in bulerias. Once you decide to learn a piece, your best bet would be to have a transcription and the recording, with a way to slow down the recording. Vids are great too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogdan1980

Now that I know what to go for, are there transcriptions availbale or does one rely on video and learn from it?

Another question, I read that bulerias are mostly if not always played with a capo to make the sound more vibrant. Is that true?

Shoot, for some reason Solea is so much clearer (as far as compas) than bulerias. The strumming patterns absolutely make no sense...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 9:20:14

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Mark2)

If you are versed in reading a score as a classical guitarist then I would advise you strongly to get the scores by Oscar Hererro and Claude Worms. Most other books of transcriptions obscure the meaning of the phrases and the compas by writing everything in the wrong place and with the wrong time signatures. This may well be what makes things not make sense.

The encuentro series are excellent and inspriational but the scores are too tedious to work with, same with faucher.

I agree and disagree with Patrick. Learning the notes for a piece and then hoping to get the meaning after doesn't work for any style, not for classical not for rock and not for country and western. The special difficulties with flamenco are a lot to do with people blindly sticking to a way of notating things which is just plain wrong. This is true not just of Bulerias but also Sivilannas, fandangos, alegrias and solea.

If you think that Pacos playng is not in compas then your ear is in trouble. Best to get your ear right and then learn the notes. I genuinely believe that the format in which Hererro and Worms notate their buleria is a great big help for that. Check out their Duende flamenco anthologies of Buleria. The new buleria method book is not really so good but the anthologies are great and they have page after page of compas examples which are great if you can read rhythm.

D.

PS a capo raises the pitch of the guitar, anything higher sounds brighter. Also several falsetos use stretches which can be impractical for small hands without a capo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 11:42:48

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I strongly advice to ignore the notation for timing and get your timig directly from the guitarists audio... its good practice and somethings just cannot be written down in notation, not the way they are meant anyway..not to mention that its not always the guitarist themselfs transcribing it, trust noone but your own ears.

when trying to learn a flamenco piece, if you want it to sound as the original , weather you read notation or not the audio is essential imo. so if you are constantly checking yourself against the audio anyway, theres no need to check the notation for timing too (which may or may not be right) unless its eazyer for you to read notation but even then you are just using it to learn the notes, not how to play it.

i dont know mibe the timing can be written perfectly in notation, i just dont trust notation to capture the feel and the dynamics and volume and everything that is there.

i can see how notation would have been usefull to play composers who didnt play theyr own music or who are dead ..because notation is the closest indication on how he would have wanted it played.

but in flamenco we have the luxury of listening to the composer play it exactly as he means it to be played as there are no composers who dont acctualy play theyr own pieces.

sorry i have a limited knolodge of classical and notation but i pressume that there are composers who just compose and havent acctualy recorded themselfs playing theyr own work for everyone to follow, u can follow other musiceans interpretations of what they tought the composer would have wanted.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2008 14:49:07