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Pedro Maldonado / cedar top?
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aarongreen
Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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 RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Patrick,
Muchos Gracias!
Miguel,
Like most things in guitar it really depends on a number of factors that make it pretty much a case by case basis. First of all the contruction, if the maker engineered in such a way that the torque of the strings is not excessive (strings low to the top), the top is braced sufficiently so the tension of the strings don't cause it to collapse, (this is a tricky bit of work as there is an inherent contridiction here, you need the top to be able to vibrate effciently), there is the quality of the materials as well. Good wood is free of internal tension that causes cracks that don't close up and well seasoned wood is more stable. The quality of the luthiers work is imperitive, did they build the guitar in a humidity controled enviroment, take care with their glue joints etc..
For example a lot of people are switching back to hide glue for the reason that you can reverse it and fix it. The Valasquez that came to me in pieces, the back was hide glued on and what was still glued came apart with nothing more than a pallete knife. THe braces were unglued at the ends and all I did was run a little more glue under there (after a cleaning) and clamp. Can't do that with any other type of glue. Makes restoration not only easier but in some cases possible where otherwise they wouldn't be.
How well the guitar has been taken care of probably has more to do with the longevity than anything. Guitars are fragile and when they were cheaper there wasn't the finacial rational to necceassarily take good care of them. Many guitars that might have otherwise been around for quite some time died from neglect (or poor repairs) more than anything else.
Although just like a 98 year old 3 pack a day smoker who can still party like a rock star, there are exceptions. The '51 Barbero that Sabicas recorded Flamenco Puro with is a great example. This 53 year old guitar is in better shape than most of us. The owner of that guitar told me that he bought the guitar without a case, took it home on the bus in a paper bag, used it as his beach guitar all through college and his younger days and the instrument spent probably close to 20 years strung with 4 strings in a closet without being humidified or anything. Not for nothing but this guy has probably the best Conde I have ever seen, from the early 70's and that was his guitar. As the Barbero had a crack, he just assumed it was broke. Dennis Koster convinced him otherwise and Richard Brune restored the guitar, although I don't think it needed all that much work. Actually being in a closet probably is what saved it. I see a number of older guitars with the most sloppy neglegent repair work that basically screwed the guitar up so much that what might have been an easy repair is now major surgery.
I also had in the shop some years ago a 1870's Soto y Soleras that is it's owners working guitar. THe thing is amazing and in great shape with a sound that is anything but tired. The guitar is very well made (Soto y Soleras were contempories of Torres and in fact sold instruments for him.) and has been well taken care of with a noticable absence of crappy repairs.
If you buy smart and take good care of your guitar and get a competent luthier to work on it as the need arises, you will have that guitar for as long as you wish. It is true that the violin is better engineered for the long haul but guitars should be able to outlive it's original owners and then some.
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Date Apr. 14 2004 12:43:51
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RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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One thing I don´t understand is the thing about hide glue. I´ve done some violin reparations, and the deck was removed without difficulty, but I´ve also taking of two guitar backs without major problems. One was glued with Titebond and the other with PVA. It´s not as easy as with the hide glue. One has to work a bit more, and ´listen´a bit more to the glue. It will tell if the palette should be warmer.
The thing about longivity of a guitar is all like Aaron said. Quality of construction, wood, builder, and especially how it´s been taking care of. No golden rules here.
I´ve got a M. A. Bellido cedar/cypress. It´s very nice sounding, with beautifull tonal quality, very nice brilliant trebles, and can be played quite hard without breaking the tone. But it does lack a bit of attack.
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Date Apr. 14 2004 15:31:51
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aarongreen
Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Hey Anders,
Hide glue is really the only glue where the joint is either glued or not. My old teacher used to call PVA and to a lesser extent titebond "bubblegum glue". That is to say they aren't really holding but they also aren't letting go. If you have ever seen a creaped joint you will know what I mean. I remember when I was an apprentice that Alan took the top off a Martin that the airlines had their way with. The shoulder brace had moved down towards the soundhole while still being glued to the top. The tension of the strings did that, not the airlines. This is way bad. If that brace had been glued with hide glue, that joint would not have moved, if there was an impact of sufficient force to cause the joint to fail, the brace would have popped off, most likely that would be the least of your worries in that situation though.
In reversing a hide glue joint that isn't dessicated you need more than just heat alone, you need either water and heat, which is not always advisable or you need to run a little alcohol into the joint which will reverse the glue nicely. Titebond and PVA don't join the way hideglue does which is one reason why you had better luck taking off that back. Those glues form a bond where the glue is basically a mechanical gasket between the two pieces of wood. We're talking on the molecular level here if it's a good joint. Hide glue penetrates the wood and keys them together. So you can see why it is harder to pry apart. I believe it also makes for a better acoustical response in the guitar as you don't have this gasket as it were between your braces. We're talking small differences here but every little bit helps, believe me.
In restorations like I mentioned a hide glue joint is the only one where at any given point down the road, if the joint fails, you can run some new glue in there and the joint will be good as new. (I should mention here that I think the braces unglued from the back because the back, being flat sawn Brazilian rosewood, moved around quite a bit. The braces popped which I am sure kept the back from cracking all over the place) Any other glue you have to get all the old glue out of there and prepare a fresh surface. Not always possible in the case of a partially unglued brace. This is a big part of making your instruments fixable and thereby increasing the potential life span of the guitar. Making life easy for future repair people is always a good idea.
One common misconception is that hide glue isn't as strong. It does depend on how you make it but in reality it is incredibly strong. Textured glass like they used in old office buildings is made with hide glue. They take an ordinary piece of glass, coat it with glue and then peel the glue off which takes a lot of glass with it. Very strong indeed.
I used titebond for many years and for a number of those years I resisted going to hide glue because it seemed to difficult to use. That was silly, it is easier to use than titebond. You do have to worry abou the glue gelling on you but if it does you heat it up a little and your off and running., When gluing on a top or back I run a little glue in there on a knife, clamp and move to the next section. It is wonderfully easy and stress free. You will not regret making the switch, I promise.
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Date Apr. 15 2004 13:06:41
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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One thing, I know I beat on my guitar a lot, golpes galore, rumba strums. My old guitar, from Paracho, looks like it has been through a war. Now obviously my playing style is a lot harsher than a classical guitarist's. Yet you still believe a guitar can last a long time, 20, 30, 40 years, being played aggressively?
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Date Apr. 15 2004 15:12:37
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RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (in reply to aarongreen)
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Aaron,
That last part, the back gluing is very interesting. I know hide glue, and is worried about gluing a back with this big glue joint and using hide glue that sets so fast.
So what you do, is that you put the back on with tape?, after having adjusted the neck angle. (this is important) and then you slow and easy lift a part of the back and let some hide glue into the joint? and then move on to another part, until you´ve covered it all?
This is very interesting, because the thing about gluing the back with titebond, using rope or rubberband is very streesing, and one easily puts to much pressure on the rope/band, with the possibility of deforming the body (imploding SB).
Do you know that the Valencia factorys have started using CA for a lot of things. Incl. gluing the braces. It is interesting, CA is nasty stuff, but it dries up very crystal like, which should result in good tonal properties, and it (like hide glue) enters more or less everywhere. But I must admit that I hate the smell of it, and only use it for my thumbnail and for filling up small imperfections after sealing a guitar.
PS: I will mail you about olive oil. I havent forgot it.
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Date Apr. 15 2004 21:04:29
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RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Well, Aaron, I´m close on gettin there, and sorry to everyone else who might think that this is way out.
So the plywood rim cover the whole back/side glue joint?, and you slowly work your way from heel to endblock. I suppose wooden Klemsia clamps will do here as well
How long time does the joint need to be clamped before you can remove the clamps?
Do you adjust the neck angle in thge solera?
Lots of question, I know, but I really apreciate, and learn a lot. And I´m quite sure that my next will be glued this way. I like the smell of hot hide glue. In general I like the smell of traditional instrument making. Violin varnishes really turn me on, so does Tru - oil. I used to work with old wooden boats, so everything linseed oil etc. is nice (+ fresh air) These days I´ve been able to work with the windows open, 55% humidity and views of the mountains, and the old folks from the village talking about the weather and other small (big) things. This can be seen in the quality of my work.
Anders
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Date Apr. 16 2004 7:37:38
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RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Thanks Patrick, I enjoy as well.
Aaron, seems like our workshops are two different worlds. I do like this with the big windows, but I´m not sure them dames without sweaters would make me work better. I´m hopefully moving in a month or so to a very old house with 60 - 70 cm thick walls and small windows. This is essential in summer here. But it´s nice and sunny. Important in the cold winter, and the views......... No dames, pure authentical Andalucía
I understand that a lot of people consider you a very good guitarmaker. Seems that you´ve got stuff very well controlled, and from what I´ve seen on the net, your guitars do look very nice indeed. This with the cam clamps pulling is right on. Havent thought about that, but they sure do pull.
The reason I asked for the clambing time was that with your methods, it sounds like it´s possible to do half the glue joint in the evening, then let it dry overnight, and finish the gluejoint next day. This for builders with few clamps!!!
I also set the angle in the solera, and leave glue joints for the time they need. But then again I´m not pro, so no stress here.
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Date Apr. 16 2004 21:56:18
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RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (in reply to TANúñez)
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This with not having enough clamps is right. And that´s what I like about the traditional rope or rubberband tecnique. I was tninking of going from top to bottom, because I like the way that you control well the gluing of the heel.
Tom doesn´t want to talk about marimbas, he´s just jealous. Tom! finish that Barbero!!!! It´s fantastic to play your own. Or maybe you are in one of your Buddy Holly periods with your sunburst stratocaster?
Anders
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Date Apr. 17 2004 8:00:28
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RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (in reply to aarongreen)
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Hide glue penetrates the wood and keys them together. So you can see why it is harder to pry apart. I believe it also makes for a better acoustical response in the guitar as you don't have this gasket as it were between your braces.quote:
Aaron
¡Ole! This is what George Lowden taught me in Ireland!! Good glueing is of great importance.
Suerte
Sean
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Date Apr. 20 2004 14:33:25
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