Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
Hmm ... All the guitars I have owned over a long period of time have all improved with age. I have a Martin OM-28 steel string which sounded tight when I got it and it has the sweetest voice of any steel string I have played after ten years of playing it. My Pedro De Miguel Negra was boomy, and I didn't particularly like the sound when it was new. After a year of playing it has developed a nice raspy sound, not boomy at all. These are both Spruce/Rosewood guitars. My El-Cheapo Yamaha Flamenco noticeably improved over a couple years of playing. I have an old Cedar/Rosewood classical, it has improved with age.
I just bought a new Pedro De Miguel Cypress/Spruce Blanca, in just a couple weeks it sounds better than the day I bought it, and it isn't just my imagination.
I think the idea that guitars "don't" improve with age is the REAL myth. Even cheap guitars get better with playing. I'm a very critical person and I'm not just imagining that the guitars I own have improved, they really have. IF you read the link that I posted twice previously, you will see that there are indeed legitimate studies to support this as well.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to n85ae)
OK Jeff, I guess we have different experiences and views about this. The research you quote has a lot about the physical properties of wood and the possible changes that take place. I don't think it helps to settle the question of whether the improvemment in sound quality is imagined - it just accepts that it might be true -"Common beliefs are that regular playing and aging of wood improve the acoustical properties of musical instruments." Objective confirmation of this would require some agreed basis for playing and/or listening tests or some other way of measurng improvemment. Here is another study that makes some kind of attempt http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/IntaViolin.pdf Sadly the results are not conclusive. Enough of this - let us enjoy our guitars - the most pleasurable things that money can buy!? Rob
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to n85ae)
Well, I have ears, and they work, I don't need to convince myself that guitars get better with playing. If you can't hear a difference then maybe it's your ears?
Perhaps an audiologist could answer the question for you? :)
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to n85ae)
OK - I'll get them checked. I guess it's not just the sound that's important when evaluating a guitar, but also the feel - (pulsation?). Do you think that this changes over time as well? Rob
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to RobJe)
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobJe
Sorry John - I was trying to be lighthearted.
The other thing that interests me is flamenco guitars that are supposed to die of old age - played out. I know that some of the old lightly built didn't make it into old age, but just folded in half. I recently acquired a 1965 Sobrinros de Esteso 'media luna' blanca - heavily played judging by the wear on the frets and fingerboard - but far from dead and an absolute joy to play. The top seems as stiff as some of the more modern guitars and the action has remained very low. A 1961 Juan Alverez has not done so well in terms of sound - it has a much more floppy top and there are now some other physical signs that suggest deterioration.
Rob
No need to be sorry, I realized you were joking. There was no offense taken on my part. I'm not the best writer in the world and sometimes convey the wrong impression by being too direct.
Re: guitars wearing out This is a subject that I've wondered about for years. I've played quite a few guitars that I considered worn out including Santos, Arcangel Fernandez, Ignacio Fleta, Esteso, etc. and at the same time some old guitars are just fine including a 1936 Hauser, 1939 (If I recall might have been earlier) Esteso, 1955 Fleta and others. The 1955 Fleta was perhaps the best guitars I've ever put my hands on. I can only guess that it's a result of remarkably resiliant wood in the top and an accidental perfect sizing of dimensions for longevity.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to jshelton5040)
Hi John I have an idea that Fletas are built with thicker tops and 9 fan stuts - perhaps this is good for long life. If heavier build is good for longevity perhaps I don't need to worry so much about the extra weight I put on over the Christmas period! Rob
Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to RobJe)
quote:
I am more sceptical about the considerable improvements some people report as a result of playing the guitar over time.
Me too!
I think that what we do is adapt our playing to suit the guitar and so gradually get the best from it. Good payers do this much more easily of course. How many times have you seen a really good player pick up a cheap guitar and make it sound much better than its owner can?
I have 2 guitars and when I switch I have to subtely change the way I play, because the guitars have slightly different action, dimensions, tone, response etc
I think this is how the myth arises. Its the playing that changes not the guitar imo.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to n85ae)
ok what i wonder is about the sweet spot between the sound hole and the bridge. is there a natural sweet spot for each guitar that as its being played in, i have to discover? or by my playing in the same spot over and over again, do i create it?
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to n85ae)
quote:
Your guitar will tell YOU when you've found her sweet spot.
Oooouuuhh... And that s something that really turns me on.
My opinion on the subject. Yes guitars improve by being played. When they are brand new, they change all the time and can be difficult to judge, especially if you try it on a bad day. Per Halgreen wrote some lines about it in his photoessay that I really liked:
"All new guitars are like an opera primadonna. One day it is fantastic, the other day it is like it did not sleep well in the night and has headache and sore throat... I guess there is a lot to happen in a newly strung guitar. The wood need to stretch and find the balance within the instrument". I totally agree. It takes a while to settle. Then later over a period of a year it slowly devellops its sound especially in the high register. When played regularely, the instrument normally stays more or less stable. humidity changes change the sound of the instrument, and when left for a long time without being played, it normally needs to wakened up again.
Some guitars, especial very powerfull ones need a certatin time every day you play them in order to sound well. Some 10 - 15 min is not strange. This is very clear with violins, where some of the very good ones can be quite grumpy, if you let them sleep to long. Some guitars can be the same, with nasal basses for the first half an hour.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to n85ae)
I have heard that concerning this "opening up" issue, there is difference between cedar top guitars and spruce top guitars.
Spruce top guitars need a longer time to open up and to achieve their full potential. Cedar top guitars also open up but if you compare 2 brand new guitars (one with cedar top and the other with spruce top), the one with cedar top mostly wins because it already sounds good and warm without beeing played much.
However after few weeks and/or months, the sound of the one with spruce top dramatically improves whereas the one with the cedar top improves only slightly in this time.
I have heard that specially the "perfect sounding brilliant trebles" which can be achieved through older spruce top guitars, can not be achieved by most cedar top guitars.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to Arash)
This is driving me crazy - all this anthropomorphising of inanimate objects! All of these anecdotal tales! Please, let reason rule!!! We are descending into the dark ages!!!
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
quote:
but what I do miss is the sweet cypress smells from when it was new.
Put some humidity in the case, a wet wash cloth or paper towel, then cover the sound hole with a polishing cloth. You will be surprised by the "smell".
About the brain getting soft...ah....no. It is real. The guitar changes, it is not about getting used to it. The wood, the material as you say, DOES change.
Would you try this for a negra (indian rosewood)? When I first received my HSL F03, it had that freshly built smell even though it was built 2 years before I bought it. The smell has slowly disappeared. If I did give this a try, how wet should the towel be? Where would you put it exactly? How long should the wet cloth be left in?
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to n85ae)
I recently bought a Salvador Castillo that improved markedly while playing in -- and I was playing it obsessively, it is such a great guitar. Couldn't keep my hands off it. So I believe in the "playing in" phenomenon, but I am also willing to consider the possibility that it could be a psychological phenomenon. As I get used to the guitar I learn how to extract better sounds; maybe it is my relationship to the guitar that improves . . .? Has anyone ever put an oscilloscope on a guitar before and after it was played in to see if there is anything measurable that happens?
And is it the fact that the guitar has aged, or the fact that it was played while aging that causes the improvement?
I know someone is going to say it's both, but how do you know? The aging and playing happen at the same time. Usually.
I've heard that experiments have been done standing a new guitar next to a really loud speaker and letting it vibrate 24/7 to "play it in". Anybody know if that has any scientifically verified effect on the responsiveness?
I have a classical that was made by a good luthier of the old Granada school and I never played it enough for it to "open up" (or whatever it is that happens). I just preferred my blanca, so I played it instead. The classical is now 30 years old an has probably been played less than 20 hours total.
Has it "settled in" so that playing it will have no effect now?
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to Francisco)
quote:
Would you try this for a negra (indian rosewood)? When I first received my HSL F03, it had that freshly built smell even though it was built 2 years before I bought it. The smell has slowly disappeared. If I did give this a try, how wet should the towel be? Where would you put it exactly? How long should the wet cloth be left in?
doesn't hurt to try. Keep a dry polish cloth over the sound hole. I just get a paper towel wet and squeeze it out so it is damp. Then keep it in the case with the guitar. I check it, and depending on how much the case lets air in and out, the paper towel will dry out. When it is dry, I get it wet again, and keep checking. After a few days, the guitar smells real nice, at least if you like the smell of whatever wood. I like cypress and maple much more than Indian Rosewood smell.
For some folks talking about the guitar changing over time myth, like it is psychological or your individual playing changes, sure that happens. I would say your playing changes more quick than the guitar itself. My personal experience and feeling on the matter is involving instruments that ARE NOT MINE. Meaning I played a friend's guitar for just a little while. Then 2 years later I tried it again and it was a different instrument all together in terms of it's sound. It had NOTHING to do with my own playing technique on that instrument, I spent no significant time adapting to it. It was just a very noticeable change of the instrument itself. Sometimes I have noticed a guitar getting a better sound AND becomes easier to play. And this has happened to me with more than one friend/student and their guitars. And yeah, I have noticed how guitars owned by friends/students that do NOT get played by their owners very much (again NOT ME), that the instruments do NOT shape up with time. So from my point of view, there really is something to it.
About real science involved, Ramirez talks in his book about the crystalization of the finish and how a good player helps activate this process or speeds it up. Beyond that it still seems mysterious to me.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to a_arnold)
tony, i agree my castillo kicks ass too. it also smells great. aren't the headstocks killer/make great cejilla designs? lol
i have noticed that my guitar has changed sound, it is opening up. my guitar instructor has noticed too. in fact i recorded it when i first got it, and i recorded it now (the mic hasn't moved lol, settings are all the same) and it sounds different, alot
sur emy playing is different, but i'm just as capable of producing the same range of tones with my right hand now as i was then. bach lute suites and villa lobos seem to have more depth to them than they did before....
cathulu, its not like the dark ages. there's a reason people age spruce before they build with it. and there is a reason that spruce sounds better aged. there is science behind it.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to HemeolaMan)
Darn it all, I had a brilliant response and the world's problems solved and then when I went to post it I was disconnected. More than twice bitten, I am a slow learner.
Anyways, where is the science? Wood needs to stablilize and reach the same humidity as the air or it will not be good for the guitar. Same for hardwood flooring.
Wood is tubes, the tube diameters swell with humidity, but the lenght is very stable. The wooden humidity gauge takes advantage of this property. So along the grain wood is stable, but cross grain it can change with humidity.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to cathulu)
yes. and cross grain stability is a prized quality in guitar tops.
wood is wet when it is new. as it ages and as it is played it dries. improving cross grain stability.
you really can't win this one lol. there is a reason older gutiars sell for more, and it isnt just who is on the label. although the sound has a lot to do with why the label gets a high price
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread