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alan

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Dec. 14 2007
 

female flamenco guitarists 

A guitar teacher friend of mine said last week that women can't really play flamenco, as they don't have the muscular strength or stamina in their right hands. Without being smutty, can you provide any evidence to disprove his statement, or do you agree with him? Preferably I'd like to send him a video or something. (which he'll then probably regard as an unusual freakish one-off!)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 9:37:44

JBASHORUN

 

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 11 2011 17:34:50
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 9:57:24
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

your teacher is wrong.

there is a female guitarist traveling with Belen Maya company, Domenic saw her 1 month ago.

is just a matter of time before one releases a good album.

I dont know how it is for women guitarists in Spain, i imagine very dificult because of the culture, however i think its just a matter of time.

quote:

as they don't have the muscular strength or stamina in their right hands


sure untrained they might start out like that, however trained there is no stopping anyone.

there are plenty of women doing phisical activities that once upon a time were only asociated with men and doing a good job at it.

military, sport, music, stunts, missonary on top. etc.

I am a strong supporter of women i think after cooking, and taking care of the kids they should be allowed to do whatever they please !! I am so sick of the old way of thinking. we are not so different.

You go girl !!!! .........tell your friends I said that.

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 15:40:37
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Florian

and i'm sure florian will confirm the fact that women have excellent right hand stamina lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 16:14:42
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to HemeolaMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

and i'm sure florian will confirm the fact that women have excellent right hand stamina lol

Reminds me of the time I was on this guitar course and the guy sitting next to me kept offering to help me practice my right hand technique. It was mildly amusing the first couple of times....


Alan I have only one thing to say to your guitarist friend. ****! So does that mean that I and the 4 other women on the Pena guitar course are just wasting our time? Because we are never going to be able to do it well?

Flo is right that there are many professions that used to be male dominated for cultural reasons, and for women to break that cycle takes time, but it's on it's way.

Actually, no I have some other things to say to him. Who is this guitarist friend and where does he live?

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 18:47:30
 
Arash

Posts: 4463
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

I know an iranian girl who studied flamenco guitar since she was a child.
In fact, she moved from Iran to Holland as a child and lived there only to learn flamenco guitar.
And she was teached by Paco Pena. However she told me that it was very difficult and that she suffered many prejudices

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 21:05:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

http://www.marijatemo.com/index.php?action=website-view&WebSiteID=108&WebPageID=2041



http://www.foroflamenco.com/upfiles/775/Jh15853.jpg
Perhaps this lady does not have the right hand strength and stammina?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 21:31:25
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

Not flamenco, but I've always loved Badi Assad. I'm sure if she'd studied it she'd be great at it too.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 22:21:59
 
val

 

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007
From: London

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Florian

quote:

i think after cooking, and taking care of the kids they should be allowed to ...

Watch it Florian. Ailsa might have missed that but I didn't.
Val
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 0:59:41
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to val

quote:

ORIGINAL: val

Watch it Florian. Ailsa might have missed that but I didn't.


No I didn't miss it, but I had too many other things to do to respond.

I do look after my kids and we have fun together - it's not a chore or a duty. But cooking and cleaning? Life's too short. I can't think that any woman looking back on her life would say, 'Wish I'd spent more time cleaning the house.'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 1:38:35
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Ailsa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa
I can't think that any woman looking back on her life would say, 'Wish I'd spent more time cleaning the house.'


HA HA HA !!

Am sure Florian had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he said that, and happy in the knowledge that he lives very far away from us foro females !!!!!

As for female guitarists there are plenty of them making friends with Emilio on his myspace page.

Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 2:05:26
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to John O.

Very talented lady!

quote:

Badi Assad


Man....you couldn't even make up that name if you tried!

(Maybe she has a sister Kiki Assad)

cheers,

Ron

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But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 2:43:13
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Ron.M

Funny is how it's pronounced (Baji Assaj)

Amazing how she can do that all at once. Still, you hear her attempts at rasgueado don't nearly compare to what a flamenco player can do - so back to the missing strength. She can slap the strings and make her guitar sound like a funky bass, though.

This actually shows her talents a bit better:


She's hot, too. That helps

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 3:26:48
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 6:31:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to John O.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

Funny is how it's pronounced (Baji Assaj)



I thought so too until I met them. I had dinner with and talked to OH-die-air Ah-sah-duh. Their father was middle eastern, so the name is not Brazillian nor should it be pronounced that way. But they sure do have the Brazillian "aire" to their playing!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 8:03:04
 
Estevan

Posts: 1891
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Florian

quote:


there is a female guitarist traveling with Belen Maya company, Domenic saw her 1 month ago.


and there's one in Olga Pericet's company (I saw her three months ago)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 9:07:59
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
the name is not Brazillian nor should it be pronounced that way.


I wondered about the pronunciation. I used to learn samba (dance and percussion) and paraded in the Rio Carnaval a couple of times. I remember being suprised that one of the famous samba schools, Grande Rio, is pronounced 'grungey hee-o'. I think it's harder to learn to speak well than Spanish, but can be beautiful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 9:08:30
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Ailsa

quote:

and paraded in the Rio Carnaval a couple of times.


Muito bem Bahiana!

(I worked in Rio and Recife for a year....the Samba is overpowering, you could live the rest of your life in it!)


cheers,

Ron

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A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 9:38:07
 
gnasrawi

 

Posts: 12
Joined: Dec. 15 2007
 

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

Badi Assad, the name sounds Arabic.

Another female is Gabriela in "Rodrigo y Gabriela", they play latino though, not flamenco.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 12:14:32
 
Jasmine_27

Posts: 67
Joined: Mar. 26 2007
From: Tokyo

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Ailsa

Evidently PDL also ascribes to the idea that women will never be serious contenders in the world of flamenco guitar - he feels we just don't have the stamina or desire to practice 8 hours a day. Or maybe he thinks you just have to have genuine cojones to play well!

According to professional flamenco guitarist Maria Aldebarran, most Gitano players refuse to accept women in the inner circle and it's a cultural bias, not one based on potential or ability. And often guys learn the most in these jam sessions together, so that's a great learning (and bonding) opportunity that we may often be excluded from. Even female singers used to be excluded from cabals with Antonio Mairena, and guitarists are even more protective of their turf.

As far as sheer strength goes, my hands are probably not as dense or heavy as most men's, but that's not necessarily the most important factor in determining how well I might play. Everyone has to face obstacles in developing the ability to play flamenco guitar, and prejudice is just one more obstacle to confront. Personally, I think someone who disparages our potential is probably threatened by the prospect of being bested by a girl, and I say - Bring 'em on! Mano a mano, dude! (but give me about five more years before you take me up on that challenge!)

P.S. Arash, what's the Iranian woman's name? I'd like to look her up!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 13:41:49
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Jasmine_27

quote:

Personally, I think someone who disparages our potential is probably threatened by the prospect of being bested by a girl, and I say - Bring 'em on! Mano a mano, dude!


OLE !! i say ****em , u always gonna get narrow minded people, absoluteley noone on earth can tell you what you can and cant achive.

Yeah its not eazy or fair and some will try make it difficult for you but so what ..thats life, weather you are a man, woman, foreigner, gipsy.

for every disadvantage a certain group of people have, they also have advantages.

the most succesfull people are not always the ones with the most skills necesarely but those with the most mental strength, drive, and the power to overcome obsticles as they arrise .IMo


I dont know...if there really is phisical differences that can hold a female guitarrist back (i doubt it) but even if there is, so what, find a way around it.. hilight those things you do well, if the 4 stroke rasqueado dosent get as much strength, do it using triplets ( PMI) etc. triplets dont really relie on strength anyone can do em , they relie more on motion, with enough practice you can get the exact same effect... there is atlist 5 ways of getting the same effect expecially with rasqueado.

good for you Jasmine and good luck to you !

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 14:34:48
 
Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

well,

flamenco without woman is nothing ,

what about the woman classical players, they are many!!!!

classical guitars have higher actions, thick necks, and there are no capo, so they need more grip!!!! dosent that make sense,

for me the most sexiest thing in the world, is a woman playing a guitar

i would like a flamenco one

oleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 15:10:19
 
gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
 

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

In America that's called 'male chauvinism', or a 'sexist remark.' It would seem that by now the world would have overcome most of that type of thing, but that's the way it is in a lot of places. There's not a lot that can be done about it except keep on trying and move forward from our bleak past in world societies. I figure that I can only do my part and change the prejudices still within myself.
It's not easy though to live in a world full of racial and sexual stereotypes (and even more biases) when you have to deal freely with certain individuals. But then again, I would not be saying that I am perfect, and we have to figure that we all have our flaws. We have to face it, the world is not as far into the future as we would like to think. And some day when we figure the world has progressed as we do now, for many reasons we will have yet even more flaws in humanity to deal with as we uncover the scope in humanity. It's a long journey into perfection.

Gary
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 16:17:36
 
alan

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Dec. 14 2007
 

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

Thanks to all for your replies. We were actually discussing Rodrigo and Gabriela at the time, and he said it was very unusual to see someone like her, as they don't have stamina etc etc. I said that my mother was extremely good at mixing Yorkshire pudding batter with her right hand. He said, maybe yes, but not guitar. I said, oh, it's because they are mixing batter, they don't have time for the guitar. My subtlety was lost on him.
Bizarrely in the way these things come up, I was speaking to another friend about dancing, and we discussed how ballet sees and embraces differences between men and women and uses each to their best. So I very much agree with Florian that there may be a lot left to explore in female guitar technique (and flamenco dance technique! - women dance too much like men perhaps in general), although I myself don't think there's any difference physically between hands and arms. You should see my wrists! Ladies wrists.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 21:14:07
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

My left hand technique can be very crude. If I make sure to practise with more sensitivity using as little strength as possible I always see improvements.

Also, people always say I play SO damn loud and it's not necessary, it's from all the years of strength exercises and playing without a mic. I notice on good days my tone and attack are much better when I'm hardly using any strength at all but hitting them just the right way.

I think at a certain point strength in left and right hand becomes less of an issue, more important is control of the tension for the left hand and precision/angle of attack for the right. Women are proven to be more sensitive and receptive when it comes to the sense of touch.

I think the reason is there are few women interested in learning the flamenco guitar.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 21:35:14
 
Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

quote:

You should see my wrists! Ladies wrists.


ya i still remebr when my mum used to slap me

that was really painfull than a golpe, jejejejeje

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2007 22:33:59
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Haithamflamenco

I had stronger wrists as a teenager than I do now

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2007 0:26:13
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to John O.

I agree John, is not really strength as in power, i think its more sharp concentrated attac or whatever you wanna call it.

with time we learn how to better project it using speed and precision rather then strength.

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2007 1:58:59
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to alan

I agree, more women in flamenco. More women behind guitars. More women for everyone!!!

I think its hard to get over gender biases. think about it, you don't expect women to want to go to a car race or an action movie. thats a gender bias, but its not a negative or derogatory one. most of the gals i know wouldn't go to an action flick for any reason atall. so by assuming they dont want to go... is that fulfilling a gender stereotype?????

all gender bias aside..... errr....well, rodrigo and gabriella..... i don't mean to trod any feelings here, but i saw them live, and her rasgeuos were shoddy at best, and his pick work was...lamentable

all together, i mean, i'm sure it was just a bad performance, but i believe someone posted a much better example of women in flamenco some time back

i think her name is Laura Gonzalez

she kicks the **** out of anything i can do lol




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2007 17:03:12
 
Jasmine_27

Posts: 67
Joined: Mar. 26 2007
From: Tokyo

RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to HemeolaMan

Dear H-man,

I watched the Laura Gonzalez video too, and though I can barely play a simple tangos at present, I was not really impressed. I know that flamenco nuevo is incorporating many different moods and influences, but ultimately this was too laid-back for me. Certainly her playing was smooth and fluid, but where was the attack, the guts, the passion? NOT!!! Like everyone else, women really need to pay their dues before they're touted as competent flamenco guitarists and just being female doesn't cut it.

I don't want to perpetuate sexist attitudes either, but personally, my biggest fear is playing "like a girl" or having people patronize me ("Oh, she's pretty good for a girl"), so I tend to judge women guitarists by the same standards as men. Semi-Spanish classical with a few rajeos thrown in is NOT flamenco and never will be. I want to measure up and be judged as an equal, and though I sure as hell can't do it yet, someday I want to play straight-on, slammin', take no prisoners flamenco. That's my goal - why aim for less?

So, anyway this doesn't quite cut it for me. Can somebody please find a video of Rocio Molina's female guitarist? I'd love to see a real tocaora just play the **** out of a hair-trigger Esteso...Hell yeah!!! Ditch those endless arpeggios and rock it!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2007 11:32:37
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