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A guitar teacher friend of mine said last week that women can't really play flamenco, as they don't have the muscular strength or stamina in their right hands. Without being smutty, can you provide any evidence to disprove his statement, or do you agree with him? Preferably I'd like to send him a video or something. (which he'll then probably regard as an unusual freakish one-off!)
there is a female guitarist traveling with Belen Maya company, Domenic saw her 1 month ago.
is just a matter of time before one releases a good album.
I dont know how it is for women guitarists in Spain, i imagine very dificult because of the culture, however i think its just a matter of time.
quote:
as they don't have the muscular strength or stamina in their right hands
sure untrained they might start out like that, however trained there is no stopping anyone.
there are plenty of women doing phisical activities that once upon a time were only asociated with men and doing a good job at it.
military, sport, music, stunts, missonary on top. etc.
I am a strong supporter of women i think after cooking, and taking care of the kids they should be allowed to do whatever they please !! I am so sick of the old way of thinking. we are not so different.
You go girl !!!! .........tell your friends I said that.
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to HemeolaMan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan
and i'm sure florian will confirm the fact that women have excellent right hand stamina lol
Reminds me of the time I was on this guitar course and the guy sitting next to me kept offering to help me practice my right hand technique. It was mildly amusing the first couple of times....
Alan I have only one thing to say to your guitarist friend. ****! So does that mean that I and the 4 other women on the Pena guitar course are just wasting our time? Because we are never going to be able to do it well?
Flo is right that there are many professions that used to be male dominated for cultural reasons, and for women to break that cycle takes time, but it's on it's way.
Actually, no I have some other things to say to him. Who is this guitarist friend and where does he live?
I know an iranian girl who studied flamenco guitar since she was a child. In fact, she moved from Iran to Holland as a child and lived there only to learn flamenco guitar. And she was teached by Paco Pena. However she told me that it was very difficult and that she suffered many prejudices
Watch it Florian. Ailsa might have missed that but I didn't.
No I didn't miss it, but I had too many other things to do to respond.
I do look after my kids and we have fun together - it's not a chore or a duty. But cooking and cleaning? Life's too short. I can't think that any woman looking back on her life would say, 'Wish I'd spent more time cleaning the house.'
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ailsa I can't think that any woman looking back on her life would say, 'Wish I'd spent more time cleaning the house.'
HA HA HA !!
Am sure Florian had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he said that, and happy in the knowledge that he lives very far away from us foro females !!!!!
As for female guitarists there are plenty of them making friends with Emilio on his myspace page.
RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Ron.M)
Funny is how it's pronounced (Baji Assaj)
Amazing how she can do that all at once. Still, you hear her attempts at rasgueado don't nearly compare to what a flamenco player can do - so back to the missing strength. She can slap the strings and make her guitar sound like a funky bass, though.
This actually shows her talents a bit better:
She's hot, too. That helps
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to John O.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: John O.
Funny is how it's pronounced (Baji Assaj)
I thought so too until I met them. I had dinner with and talked to OH-die-air Ah-sah-duh. Their father was middle eastern, so the name is not Brazillian nor should it be pronounced that way. But they sure do have the Brazillian "aire" to their playing!
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo the name is not Brazillian nor should it be pronounced that way.
I wondered about the pronunciation. I used to learn samba (dance and percussion) and paraded in the Rio Carnaval a couple of times. I remember being suprised that one of the famous samba schools, Grande Rio, is pronounced 'grungey hee-o'. I think it's harder to learn to speak well than Spanish, but can be beautiful.
RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Ailsa)
Evidently PDL also ascribes to the idea that women will never be serious contenders in the world of flamenco guitar - he feels we just don't have the stamina or desire to practice 8 hours a day. Or maybe he thinks you just have to have genuine cojones to play well!
According to professional flamenco guitarist Maria Aldebarran, most Gitano players refuse to accept women in the inner circle and it's a cultural bias, not one based on potential or ability. And often guys learn the most in these jam sessions together, so that's a great learning (and bonding) opportunity that we may often be excluded from. Even female singers used to be excluded from cabals with Antonio Mairena, and guitarists are even more protective of their turf.
As far as sheer strength goes, my hands are probably not as dense or heavy as most men's, but that's not necessarily the most important factor in determining how well I might play. Everyone has to face obstacles in developing the ability to play flamenco guitar, and prejudice is just one more obstacle to confront. Personally, I think someone who disparages our potential is probably threatened by the prospect of being bested by a girl, and I say - Bring 'em on! Mano a mano, dude! (but give me about five more years before you take me up on that challenge!)
P.S. Arash, what's the Iranian woman's name? I'd like to look her up!
RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to Jasmine_27)
quote:
Personally, I think someone who disparages our potential is probably threatened by the prospect of being bested by a girl, and I say - Bring 'em on! Mano a mano, dude!
OLE !! i say ****em , u always gonna get narrow minded people, absoluteley noone on earth can tell you what you can and cant achive.
Yeah its not eazy or fair and some will try make it difficult for you but so what ..thats life, weather you are a man, woman, foreigner, gipsy.
for every disadvantage a certain group of people have, they also have advantages.
the most succesfull people are not always the ones with the most skills necesarely but those with the most mental strength, drive, and the power to overcome obsticles as they arrise .IMo
I dont know...if there really is phisical differences that can hold a female guitarrist back (i doubt it) but even if there is, so what, find a way around it.. hilight those things you do well, if the 4 stroke rasqueado dosent get as much strength, do it using triplets ( PMI) etc. triplets dont really relie on strength anyone can do em , they relie more on motion, with enough practice you can get the exact same effect... there is atlist 5 ways of getting the same effect expecially with rasqueado.
In America that's called 'male chauvinism', or a 'sexist remark.' It would seem that by now the world would have overcome most of that type of thing, but that's the way it is in a lot of places. There's not a lot that can be done about it except keep on trying and move forward from our bleak past in world societies. I figure that I can only do my part and change the prejudices still within myself. It's not easy though to live in a world full of racial and sexual stereotypes (and even more biases) when you have to deal freely with certain individuals. But then again, I would not be saying that I am perfect, and we have to figure that we all have our flaws. We have to face it, the world is not as far into the future as we would like to think. And some day when we figure the world has progressed as we do now, for many reasons we will have yet even more flaws in humanity to deal with as we uncover the scope in humanity. It's a long journey into perfection.
Thanks to all for your replies. We were actually discussing Rodrigo and Gabriela at the time, and he said it was very unusual to see someone like her, as they don't have stamina etc etc. I said that my mother was extremely good at mixing Yorkshire pudding batter with her right hand. He said, maybe yes, but not guitar. I said, oh, it's because they are mixing batter, they don't have time for the guitar. My subtlety was lost on him. Bizarrely in the way these things come up, I was speaking to another friend about dancing, and we discussed how ballet sees and embraces differences between men and women and uses each to their best. So I very much agree with Florian that there may be a lot left to explore in female guitar technique (and flamenco dance technique! - women dance too much like men perhaps in general), although I myself don't think there's any difference physically between hands and arms. You should see my wrists! Ladies wrists.
My left hand technique can be very crude. If I make sure to practise with more sensitivity using as little strength as possible I always see improvements.
Also, people always say I play SO damn loud and it's not necessary, it's from all the years of strength exercises and playing without a mic. I notice on good days my tone and attack are much better when I'm hardly using any strength at all but hitting them just the right way.
I think at a certain point strength in left and right hand becomes less of an issue, more important is control of the tension for the left hand and precision/angle of attack for the right. Women are proven to be more sensitive and receptive when it comes to the sense of touch.
I think the reason is there are few women interested in learning the flamenco guitar.
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
I agree, more women in flamenco. More women behind guitars. More women for everyone!!!
I think its hard to get over gender biases. think about it, you don't expect women to want to go to a car race or an action movie. thats a gender bias, but its not a negative or derogatory one. most of the gals i know wouldn't go to an action flick for any reason atall. so by assuming they dont want to go... is that fulfilling a gender stereotype?????
all gender bias aside..... errr....well, rodrigo and gabriella..... i don't mean to trod any feelings here, but i saw them live, and her rasgeuos were shoddy at best, and his pick work was...lamentable
all together, i mean, i'm sure it was just a bad performance, but i believe someone posted a much better example of women in flamenco some time back
RE: female flamenco guitarists (in reply to HemeolaMan)
Dear H-man,
I watched the Laura Gonzalez video too, and though I can barely play a simple tangos at present, I was not really impressed. I know that flamenco nuevo is incorporating many different moods and influences, but ultimately this was too laid-back for me. Certainly her playing was smooth and fluid, but where was the attack, the guts, the passion? NOT!!! Like everyone else, women really need to pay their dues before they're touted as competent flamenco guitarists and just being female doesn't cut it.
I don't want to perpetuate sexist attitudes either, but personally, my biggest fear is playing "like a girl" or having people patronize me ("Oh, she's pretty good for a girl"), so I tend to judge women guitarists by the same standards as men. Semi-Spanish classical with a few rajeos thrown in is NOT flamenco and never will be. I want to measure up and be judged as an equal, and though I sure as hell can't do it yet, someday I want to play straight-on, slammin', take no prisoners flamenco. That's my goal - why aim for less?
So, anyway this doesn't quite cut it for me. Can somebody please find a video of Rocio Molina's female guitarist? I'd love to see a real tocaora just play the **** out of a hair-trigger Esteso...Hell yeah!!! Ditch those endless arpeggios and rock it!
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i think after cooking, and taking care of the kids they should be allowed to do whatever they please !! I am so sick of the old way of thinking. we are not so different. 
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