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Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

Manitas 

This is great, I know it's rubbish but it's just great rubbish from the master.
Ron will know who I mean when I say he looks like Walter Smith round about 4.05. Ha!



Thanks Georg
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2007 8:28:56
 
Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Manitas (in reply to Jim Opfer

No problem
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2007 8:31:01
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Manitas (in reply to Jim Opfer

LOL Jim,
Actually I still have a soft spot for ol' Manitas, as I think even Sean does too!
He was the first person I ever saw playing guitar in that way.
And it was exciting and made me want to investigate further.

I definitely don't think he's a "cheat" or a "charlatan" in any way.

He just plays what he's always played.

He never had any ambitions for success, he just loved playing the guitar in his own way and listening to Sabicas etc with his simple life in the South of France.

Then some entrepeneurs came along and "discovered" him and marketed him to the world and everybody made a bit of money.

I still love his two-finger (i and a) method of reverse arpegio!!

You can hear he just LOVES playing guitar...He is a sincere player IMO.

Olé Manitas!!

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2007 9:28:09
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Manitas (in reply to Jim Opfer

I don't want to be vindictive and I respect your softspot for Manitas.
But how about this reply to my tarantas ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Hi Koella,
Sounds good, but I must admit, I'm not a great fan of free form stuff.
I've always thought that they are much more satisfying to play rather than to listen to.
But that's just me...

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2007 10:56:14
 
Mark2

Posts: 1366
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Manitas (in reply to Jim Opfer

Have to admit I really enjoyed that. The guy had something in his way of expressing himself that a lot of really good players don't. A certain energy. Funny how some people just assume he is the MASTER.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2007 12:14:11
 
frhout

 

Posts: 440
Joined: Apr. 28 2005
From: France

RE: Manitas (in reply to Jim Opfer

Great video and Manitas in great form. I saw him last year on telly, with a hommage by Chico from Chico and the Gypsies (former member of Gipsy Kings) and a very lyrical tribute by Alain Delon, the usual clique from Saint Tropez. Manitas is over eighty with respectable grey hair and he still plays, not for long though. I remember the first flamenco cassette tape my teacher gave me back in the late seventies was a pirated recording by Sabicas, Bernabe de Moron and Manitas. It still is great fun watching him. I seriously believe that it will be headline news over here when he disappears from the scene one day. Check out in YouTube the one when Brigitte Bardot sucks her thumb.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2007 22:20:37
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Manitas (in reply to koella

quote:

But how about this reply to my tarantas


Ah but Koella, Manitas wasn't playing exactly free form.
There was a little bit of everything thrown in there...a kind of "quick tour" of Flamenco...or should I say "sub-prime" Flamenco...

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2007 23:58:18
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Manitas (in reply to Jim Opfer

brrrrrrrrrrr... picados. I am Manitas de Plata

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... rasgueados. I get the girls

brrrrrattaaaddongdong.... arpegios. And the money.

Flamenco or not, i think this was crap. well maybe he IS sincere, and not a charlatan. But then i think this only shows that he has 0 feelings for the music.

Sorry i have to add this: there are people who think flamenco is stupid music. of course that is narrow minded, and has mostly some rasistic reasonings behind that. But such performances feed these prejudices...

and damm did he never learn to make pulgar? he is lifting his whole arm. every note buzzes... where is the love? where is the love??? lol

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2007 1:15:30
 
andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: Manitas (in reply to XXX

Manitas is a true original, he's 'gitano de verdad' and he didn't become famous pushing flamenco for beginner's TAB books

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¡este arbol tiene duende, cabron!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2007 15:22:38
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to andresito

[Deleted by Admins]

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2007 17:15:13
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Manitas (in reply to andresito

yes i think your right. He is an Original. I just hate his style i think.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2007 23:12:55
 
gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
 

RE: Manitas (in reply to Jim Opfer

I liked it, 'thought it was great! You know, you feel one way or the other about music and musicians or not at all, and that's what's also great about expressing yourself on a forum such as this. For whatever reason Manitas invokes a response, that is to say he is really there expressing himself. That's a lot better than a lot of people out there who just play the guitar. With Manitas you've got to feel moved....to me that is flamenco. No wonder he is famous.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 17 2007 13:17:24
 
veet

 

Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Manitas (in reply to andresito

Well OK, he's better than John Martin, but...
Basically it's a million notes not adding up to much. Acrobatics.

He can't touch Gerardo. Or three dozen others I could mention.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2007 14:44:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10357
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manitas (in reply to Jim Opfer

This could be better in off topic since he is not a flamenco really.

OK, honestly, Ron once tricked us with a well chosen snippit that sounded "old school" a bit loose, but like a legit fandangos. It was Manitas but with just a snap shot we could not tell really, could have been any old master. I listened to several of his recordings, and he has tracks called "solea" or "bulerias" that are not in compas AT ALL. Well, he is copying things he has heard that WERE in compas, but without understanding the phrase truely. Sure the guy does what he does with feeling and everything, so is that enough? Well yes and no, but it depends on the audience.

Like imagine a famous artist, and some unknown is doing copies, and not too precisely, but good enough to pass off to people. And some, lets say the majority of folks love the copies BETTER. If you love it, is it enough to call it good art? If an expert can clearly see the difference, and tells you that you got ripped off, does it matter if you love it anyway? If the masses love it, but a few experts call it crap, who's opinion matters to you?

I think it is OK to hold fast to things that move you artistically, but at the same time don't be afraid to learn things and develop your tastes more deeply, even if it means they change over time.

I will just say about Manitas...he had the talent to learn flamenco, but never did proper unfortunately. A great rumbero though, and inspired generations and a whole genre of "gipsy rumba". Perhaps if he HAD learned flamenco, there would be no Gypsy Kings and others of that genre around today. There is a "place" for everything. Issues are just about what is in good taste or not.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2007 17:55:09
 
gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
 

RE: Manitas (in reply to Ricardo

You make a good point Ricardo, but still, I liked it, 'thought it was great! Art and aesthetics are a very deep topic. Perhaps I will change my tastes, and all that said about experts and critics and the like, you've got to feel the music at what ever level of response, whether it's got to be one thing for you or another.

You can't just rely on the expert opinion 100% of the time. We like what we like. It's just that simple. It would be a lie if I told you 'ok ricardo I hated it you were right'......and I don't care to research every musician I come across. We don't have to live at such complicated levels of self abandon. Reverence for the flamenco, doesn't have to be scripted by the 'high authority' or so concrete. It's just music, though you made an excellent point...and I respect your opinion....

Gary
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2007 19:33:44
 
andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: Manitas (in reply to Ricardo

As a tribute to Manitas I'm going to change my stage name to 'Manitas de lata' .
Just to throw the cat among the pigeons i'm going to say that while Manitas is more interesting, Jhon Mhartin did say in one of his books something about the spaces between the notes being as important as the notes themselves...

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¡este arbol tiene duende, cabron!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2007 20:51:43
 
sig

 

Posts: 286
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Manitas (in reply to Jim Opfer

Just to throw my .02 into this mix, much like Manitas, don't most Flamenco Puro's think that Carlos Montoya was somewhat of a hack?? He didn't play in compas often (althought he could) and probably didn't really care because he had an audience. I always feel that music is art in the ear of the beholder and much like Ricardo said, it depends on your audience. If someone asks me to play some flamenco, I could play just about any chord progression as long as I throw in a Rasgueado and some Picado here and there and they are non the wiser. Of course I don't do that and I explain the differences so they understand but the question remains, do they really care?? It is important to me as a artist that my audience understands what it is i'm doing and that its as true to the art form as possible. I think the average man or woman on the street finds Flamenco exotic and they could care less about compas; all they want is a good show and I think that's what old Carlos and Manitas give to the people. Is it art or crap, I don't know thats not my decision, that's the audiences...
Sig--
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 11:26:09
 
gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
 

RE: Manitas (in reply to sig

Old Carlos and Manitas didn't just play any chord progression, throw in a ras and picado. That's the thing, you're in their audience so it is clearly up to you. And that's my point, we become the performer, and we also become the audience. It's clearly somehting that you have to learn to seperate when you are listening and not playing. You don't have to live by the standards that people make for everyone else because they are learning to play flamenco and they feel that they owe something, and you can take it easy and live a little and not get caught up into dogma over what is acceptable when no one really cares. What is the mystery, if it's there in black and white?

I am not a 'purist' and I am not a 'martyr' for the flamenco. I think that a lot of purism is defeatist and an illusion made possible by the media and people who buy and live by the records they keep. Though I think that high standards are a good thing when performing what ever the music. But, then again, I can take care of myself.

EDIT: Flamenco is entertainment.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2007 15:14:08
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