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[Poll]

Scandalous Poll


Yes, they're great!
  44% (8)
No, I hate them! I would rather listen to Ottmar!
  22% (4)
I like some songs
  33% (6)
I like Tonino
  0% (0)


Total Votes : 18


(last vote on : Jul. 21 2013 6:41:21) 
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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

in homogenous company


Careful!
Don't accuse Florian of being Homogenous or he'll hit you with a wombat.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 17:24:57
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

If I remember correctly Florian said about homogenous: "not that theirs anything wrong with that."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 19:21:08
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

I said no such thing !!! And i am not a homo , you are
stop beeing childish, both of you. GROW UP !
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 2:31:49
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2547
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

Don't accuse Florian of being Homogenous or he'll hit you with a wombat


That's if he just want to settle you down. If he want's to hurt you he'll break out the Koala

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 4:25:09
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Oh, don't worry about the tapas! My wife and I are probably just too picky. We certainly enjoyed the music, the incredible aire, and the company.


No Miguel, you weren't being fussy, they were overcooked or maybe refried boquerones. Yuck!

As for world music stations, there are a lot of them around, especially on the internet. There is also the BBC where you can listen online
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/world/index.shtml

Saludos
Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 11:59:58
 
tanolonco

 

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

Miguel (and i guess others): With all the hoopla and barbs about puro and non puro, I think you and I fell into the trap inherent with typologies--what defines each classification? When one looks into the world of biological typologies, concepts such as phylum, genus, species, etc. are used and each typology has very concrete and measureable characteristics.

In the world of music, no one has defined what is puro and what is non-puro. Even within the concept of flamenco, there are no hard and fast rules--for example one person posted rumba being played in the phyrigian scale is flamenco. The phyrigian scale is often referred to as the church scale and a lot of old church music is in this scale, yet, few would argue the old church music is similiar to say a bulerias. Someone else posted tremelo as a defining characteristic.

I think to end this diatribe, and maybe to set guidelines for the future--guidelines not as a result of fiat, or the fear of having cyber beer tossed around, rather, guidelines set by using good scientific and logic principles. When I said puro, I broke good scientific principles. Puro has not been defined with concrete words that are measureable (hence valid). However, using specific performers is measureable. So, what I should have said is: Music in the style of Sabicas, Nino, and those of that generation. Likewise, those taking the "non-puro" and/or neuvo side, fell in the same trap when they did not identify the characteristics that define those "styles". So here goes as an idea:

In future discussions about what is puro and what is non-puro, these words should be replaced with words that are concrete and have measureable characteristics. Rather than say "puro" one should, following good scientific and logic principles, use more specific and measureable words such as: "in the style of" or "music performed in period X (say 1950's to 1960's as an example). We as members should ask the user of such words to be more concrete.

For example: When I said "puro" someone should have called me to task and said: "Tanolonco, how do you define 'puro'?" It would have then been on my shoulders to clarify my meaning.

Of course, we do have to accept that someone may define something very clearly yet still be adamant about their position--that is another issue, but if a person takes that postion, and is civil about it we do need to accept it .

So, Miguel and others, does this seem to have merit?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 14:50:14
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

Tano,
I think it's a great idea that instead of using a word like puro, which as you pointed out is undefined and which I pointed out is inflammatory, to use a word or phrase which is defined or which defines. Are you a scientist? You remind of Anthony (Paleto), a scientist who posts here.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 15:25:05
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to tanolonco

quote:

ORIGINAL: tanolonco
So here goes as an idea:

In future discussions about what is puro and what is non-puro, these words should be replaced with words that are concrete and have measureable characteristics. Rather than say "puro" one should, following good scientific and logic principles, use more specific and measureable words such as: "in the style of" or "music performed in period X (say 1950's to 1960's as an example). ...

So, Miguel and others, does this seem to have merit?


I think even this will cause problems, because you are making assumptions about what other people will think is "in the style of".

Classifying the music by period will not work either, as you have different genres co-existing at the same periods of time, and you run the risk of confusing whether or not something is flamenco, with whether it is traditional or contemporary in style, and these are different things in my mind.

To my mind its quite simple. Someone who plays Solea, Alegrias, Bulerias, Seguiryas, Tangos, etc etc is clearly playing flamenco, because flamenco is a family of styles, each with their own defining characteristics of rhythm and harmony. Whether they play these palos with a modern aire is another matter entirely.

Someone who plays rumba, rumba, rumba rumba, is clearly playing, well, rumba! Nothing wrong with that, but it aint flamenco.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 15:42:44
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

Jon, we had almost put this behind us and now you are opening the can of worms again. Shush! :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 15:44:15
 
tanolonco

 

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Jon: The issue at hand was not flamenco vs. non-flamenco, it is more of an issue of old school vs. new school.

Miguel: I have a Master's degree in Evolutionary Biology.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 15:54:47
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1668
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Jon Boyes

Hi Jon

Here a quote from Paco Pena, from the book Toques Flamenco

RUMBA GITANA: "This recent and popular style is an example of the continuing development of flamenco.
Rumba Gitana reflects ideas from contemporary music and shows a strong Latin American influencse; however, it is strictly flamenco - having developed from tientos/tangos. It has a syncopated 2/4 rhythm."

Greetings, Peter.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 17:42:37
 
Escribano

Posts: 6305
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to gerundino63

Also known as Rumba Catalan - of which the GKs are exponents (being Catalan), I humbly offer.

I would prefer to say "in the style of" than "puro", though sometimes the application term is obvious and can be used. You be the judge

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 18:23:38
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

Hi Jon

Here a quote from Paco Pena, from the book Toques Flamenco

RUMBA GITANA: "This recent and popular style is an example of the continuing development of flamenco.
Rumba Gitana reflects ideas from contemporary music and shows a strong Latin American influencse; however, it is strictly flamenco - having developed from tientos/tangos. It has a syncopated 2/4 rhythm."

Greetings, Peter.


Hi Peter. Not sure what your point is.

Cheers


Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 18:35:43
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to tanolonco

quote:

ORIGINAL: tanolonco

Jon: The issue at hand was not flamenco vs. non-flamenco, it is more of an issue of old school vs. new school.



Well it seems to be about both Tanolonco, and that's precisely the point I'm making.

If we are debating, say, the merits of G. Nunez and Vicente Amigo, Vs Ricardo and Montoya, then yes its a debate about old school vs new school and I quite agree that these (or even 'contemporary' vs 'traditional') are less controversial terms than 'puro', because that suggests 'pure' and its clearly a loaded word.

BUT, I'm saying some acts aren't in the school. They left school early and went and did their own thing...


Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2004 18:47:30
Guest

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

Maybe this kind of discussion only needs a bit of education and knowledge, but first of all a lot of openmindedness and acceptance of the fact that someone might, with his/her full right, not agree with you, and that it´s exactly what makes these forums exist.

I mean, we´ll always have to strugle with puro/nonpuro subjects, and there´ll always be someoene using the terms, so IMHO it would be easier to learn how to handle the subject instead of blacklisting a word or term, which we in all circumstances would have to deal with anyway.

As I´ve stated before, IMO, the subject is stupid, because flamenco has never been pure. It´s always fusioned, and I can, but dont feel like, put hundreds or thousands of pages of university credited evidence on the table in order to backup this statement.
But why??? If someone feels that he/she knows everything, and that only his brotherinlawsoldestson plays real flamenco,,,,, well that´s not going to make me throw cyberbeer around.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 8:50:43
 
bindu_72

 

Posts: 24
Joined: Mar. 12 2004
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Jon Boyes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes

Someone who plays rumba, rumba, rumba rumba, is clearly playing, well, rumba! Nothing wrong with that, but it aint flamenco.

Jon


So in my mind that means if I decided to play bulerias, bulerias, bulerias and well bulerias! then I am clearly playing bulerias. Stands to fact then that im not playing flamenco. To a person new to flamenco I'm sure things will start to get very confusing indeed. Infact maybe there is already an artist out there with 5 albums full of bulerias only. I wonder which section of HMV that would be under - clearly the 'World Music' section as there is'nt a flamenco section due to all this confusion.

I dunno I think this is all pointless and quite trivial. IMO there is music you like and dont like - who gives a toss about the category - rock, pop, blues, jazz, hip-hop, classical its all a big distraction. Just enjoy what your ears like hearing !!!

Bindu
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 10:04:40
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to bindu_72

Well I certainly agree with that last sentence.

It would probably be a lot more useful and fun exploring right hand rumba rhythm patterns. There seem to be lots of funky little variations.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 10:55:50
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

Anders, why just not say puro? Is it that important to say it? There are lots of inflammatory terms having to do with race, politics, and religion that people politely refrain from saying so they don't offend people. Accept, instead, I ask, that puro is offensive and use an alternative.

Or, like in politics and religion, in mixed company don't bring it up :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 16:05:59
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Hmm.. I see there is a DVD Collection from Television Española called "Puro y Jondo".
It's sure gonna be a lot of work for them to change all the covers to "Traditional y Contemporario, (y un poca Rumba, pero No Fusion y Pop) y Jondo" now!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 17:07:06
 
Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ !!!!!!

Wake me up when you come to a conclusion.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 19:29:37
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

No, Merle, you can't sleep through this, you have to suffer like the rest of us!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 21:19:51
 
tanolonco

 

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Merle

Miguel: I can appreciate how you must feel about folks taking such a rigid and caustic stand that it upsets others. From what I have read in this thread folks are not being rigid and caustic (including myself believe it or not) rather, they are providing salient input that is helpful for understanding (or re-understanding) flamenco. Hey, a lot has come out of this thread and I bet most of us have a better appreciation for the art.

Maybe we, as forum participants, can symbolically lay Mr. Puro from the past to rest. I think it was not the word that got folks upset, rather, how he presented it and himself. Remember, the word "puro" is just 4 letters strung together--it is the intent of the cyber speaker which is important.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 21:37:27
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

I've just been watching some Flamenco from the peñas of Jerez on Ondajerez TV, and I must agree, they never mention Flamenco Puro on that program, only Flamenco.
(In saying that, I can't say I've ever seen the GK's or Jose Feliciano on the program, but maybe I missed those transmissions. LOL)
I must say that I beg to differ about Flamenco absorbing all these other influences I keep hearing about.
Sure, we all know about the Jewish/Gypsy/Byzantine/Moorish beginnings and the Spanish excursions to the New World and the Colombianas and Guajiras etc. but I must honestly say that the good, modern Flamenco I hear these days doesn't differ in essence all that much from what I heard Terremoto and Moraito do forty years ago.
Sure, the style is more sophisticated and the guitar playing much more intricate than back then, but tennis have evolved just as much in that time, without picking up any influences from say, baseball or cricket.
So has Ice Skating and numerous other human activities and endevours.
I personally believe that the best Flamenco has evolved from within itself and not from any outside influences.
I doubt if it needs it.
I think there are probably still enough unexplored resources in that original formula to keep it going that way for long beyond my lifetime.
I believe that Flamenco has, over the last forty years, influenced other styles more than being influenced itself.
The fact that some Flamenco influenced groups wish to claim some sort of Flamenco heritage on their album notes or publicity is between them and their publicity department.
So I would agree on the "puro" aspect.
The word is as redundant as "pure" used in "Tennis" or "Pure Tennis".
There are hundreds of different styles of Music in the World, one of them called "Flamenco".
Not "Puro"... not "Fusion"... not "Avante Garde"....
Just Flamenco.
As Estela said, "If everything is Flamenco, then nothing is."

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 22:03:17
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Refer to Florian's table on his post a couple of pages back :). Which decade are you, Ron? :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 22:37:20
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

I started listening to Flamenco around the time Paco de Lucia brought out his "Fantasia Flamenca" album.
(which I thought was incredible although some may think he was just trying to copy Jose Feliciano.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2004 22:55:42
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

What makes Paco greate is the fact that he has always stayed ahead of his time, hes always been the guitarist to folow no matter the times.

Kind of like Maddona and M Jackson in pop music.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2004 0:29:37
 
Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Thanks, Miguel, you just woke me up...and I was sleeping so good!

Merle

P.S. STOP suffering, get your guitar...and do what you do! ;>)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2004 1:01:23
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Merle, I have been doing what I do. Sunday and Tuesday I had 4 hour gigs with my duo in the Marriot lounge. I even played a Soleares but no one liked it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2004 15:37:04
 
Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Miguel, 4 hours is a long time to play! How do you do it?

It would be interesting if you would give us some sort of rundown on what you are playing. I know you mentioned it's not all flamenco, but, I would like to read a list of the songs that you two play. I would suspect that you repeat a few songs once in awhile?

I can understand a non-flamenco not liking soleares.

Merle

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2004 3:10:45
Guest

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I can understand a non-flamenco not liking soleares.


Merle. what is going on??? go back and sleep a bit more. You are loosing it <g>
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2004 7:42:19
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